Text extraction. See Typescript Archive, Typescript Transcripts.
09:35:02
09:35:02 From Jeff Miller Bloom filters? Probabilistic presence?
09:35:11 From jan d need to leave for dinner! See you maybe later or next week.
09:36:02 From Jeff Miller oh interesting, elasticsearch as symmetrical for indexing and searching tokenization
09:37:12 From Jeff Miller (I was a New Relic user at Disney's Seattle office)
09:38:05 From Pete same issue with tokenization with AIML
09:38:27 From Jeff Miller (This morning before dialing in I was thinking of an item that would just spy on messages in the lineup)
09:38:54 From Marc Pierson Kiran plans to come to the next Wednesday call. He is making arrows diagrams that go into the Solo Super Collaborator and backwards into Neo4j. He also gets the value of patterns. https://kiran.relocalizecreativity.net/view/welcome-visitors/view/about-kiran-topiwala/view/recent-changes Kiran is one our our 4 or 5 neighborhood activists.
09:39:40 From Jeff Miller site surveys, the new hotness also can accumulate and update a results page
09:41:15 From Jeff Miller I forgot I did one. http://jeff.pixiereport.com/view/journal-fork-survey
09:46:27
09:46:27 From Jeff Miller Interesting seeing the gradual fetch fill-in of the site flags in the survey. the "das blinkenlights" of the wiki console
09:56:53
09:56:53 From Jeff Miller the walled garden embraces YOU (If you aren't serving anything on :80 then it might bump to :443)
09:57:29 From Robert Best You initially decided you didn't want us to turn on HTTP for your farm Brian... I can make that happen for you soon if you like.
09:58:52 From Robert Best Turn on isn't the right phrasing... Yea to allow.
10:04:35
10:04:35 From Jeff Miller dot source + graphviz plugin -> render as diagram items of type graph?
10:05:55 From Jeff Miller "The Undiscoverable Country" (my own struggle with learning fedwiki, to Brian M's question)
10:07:30 From Jeff Miller LIneup Graph is pretty good as aa demonstration.
10:09:45 From Pete https://edotor.net/
10:10:04 From Jeff Miller dot graph interactive editor! e-dot-or
10:11:39 From Jeff Miller Marc has had a lot of other tools which generate graphs, and edotor.net was a resource in adapting them to wiki-accessible form. You can get the static structure by digging into the lineup diagram page, if I recall.
10:14:44
10:14:44 From zach Wondering if I can sneak in for a quick update when there’s a moment. It’s too nice here in PDX to not be at a park with Finn lol.
10:17:34
10:17:34 From Jeff Miller This is me trying to learn how to create a static snapshot of the lineup diagram: http://recurse.pixiereport.com/view/welcome-visitors/view/lineup-snapshot
10:18:57 From Jeff Miller Marick's Garden of Wiki Examples ? (applause to Brian M's intention)
10:20:32 From Paul Rodwell https://graphviz.org/docs/attrs/fontsize/ Thompson’s graph is defined on http://thompson.genius.ustawi.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/preview-next-diagram
10:21:31 From Jeff Miller the demo deities have become demonic today? glad to hear some demo work, Zach!
10:23:33 From Jeff Miller Marc is coming from a history of visual tools for system understanding. (Sofi diagrams, etc.)
10:26:33
10:26:33 From Jeff Miller Beers Massey Lectures from archive.org : https://archive.org/details/DesigningFreedom_CBC_Lectures Harrison Bergeron - everyone handicapped or enhanced to the same level
10:27:43 From Jeff Miller (I think of that story is a real Rorschach test for what message people take from Vonnegut) "Designing Freedom" Stafford Beer
10:28:47 From Jeff Miller Dan Davies, "The Unaccountability Machine" (has it made US publication yet?)
10:29:49 From Jeff Miller (Eric Dobbs' suggestion of an accessible entry to Davies, though Eric has studied in the system resilience community for some time)
10:31:01 From Jeff Miller Beers' essay titles from the archive.org page: "The Real Threat to All We Hold Most Dear," "The Discarded Tools of Modern Man," "A Liberty Machine in Prototype," "Science in the Service of Man," "The Future That Can Be Demanded Now," "The Free Man in a Cybernetic World."
10:33:42
10:33:42 From Jeff Miller Marc recommends the Sofi model as a more accessible way in to Beers' Viable System Model concepts, showing the missing pieces that clarify how the pieces fit together.
10:34:58 From Jeff Miller Eric recommends Dan Davies' explication of Beers' "System 1", "System 2", etc. for vivid use of metaphor to elucidate the VSM. "mistaking a dynamic system for an entity" - Stafford Beer
10:36:21 From Jeff Miller David Woods' keynote at SRECon - if we describe an ocean wave as an entity, we impoverish our understanding of what's going on. "noun-verb clarity" March 28, 1979 Three Mile Island
10:38:23 From Jeff Miller revise: it's Beer talking about the wave; Woods was nouns and verbs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident
10:39:16 From Marc Pierson Me explaining Beer. This talk brought Chris Casillas to us. https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/welcome-visitors/view/viable-system-model
10:42:11
10:42:11 From Jeff Miller http://simnet.ward.asia.wiki.org/view/zip-hierarchy/view/zone-1 (Ward's demo of a hierarchical view of localized radio stations) Demo, shown in the Solo Collaborator, for regions and interconnections.
10:44:58
10:44:58 From Jeff Miller orange nodes at edges of the region graphs?
10:47:14 From Jeff Miller "Which wiki pages are a cluster of nodes?" "How does this week's cluster of pages connect with last week's cluster of pages?"
10:47:47 From Marc Pierson Useful tools for using VSM/SOFI https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/welcome-visitors/view/viable-system-model/view/full-integration-vsm-sofi-links/view/sofi-vsm-sketch/view/karins-sofi-vsm-of-kula/view/vsm-subsystems/view/vsm-diagram
10:47:52 From Jeff Miller ("bridge" mode in Solo Collaborator as an analogue of geographical connection and conceptual connection)
10:49:08 From Jeff Miller Upcoming "Explore DDD 2025" Denver conference https://exploreddd.com/ April 14-17 caution: video header with clips of talks
10:50:37 From Jeff Miller There's a clip of Ward in the little video loop!
10:53:58
10:53:58 From Jeff Miller oh right Appletalk routing (to Eric's familiarity with network routing, Novell IPX/SPX, LAN vs WAN) Ward describes mesh network routing, his work in the 1970s; Meshtastic at a different mode and frequency popular currently.
10:55:00 From Jeff Miller backbone? backhaul? (smart routing at fast network core?) Ward describes experimenting with mesh network simulation and surprising behavior.
10:57:03 From Jeff Miller Routing geographically, city to city, as an example that would be accessible. (The Six Degrees of Separation experiment with sending letters?)
11:00:38
11:00:38 From Jeff Miller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-world_experiment has a number of interesting connections
11:03:15
11:03:15 From Brian Marick it’s that time. See you next week.
11:03:17 From Jeff Miller Ward describes convergence of network simulation in routing in the presence of congestion and incomplete routing information. oh gosh network operations centers imperfect routing and adversarial routing attacks
11:04:25 From Jeff Miller ARPANet, originally, talked a lot about itself (routing updates) networking versus internetworkin g
11:04:56 From jan d I'll also go again See you next week!
11:06:07 From Jeff Miller AlohaNet with collisions and backoff
11:06:24 From Paul Rodwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALOHAnet
11:06:41 From Jeff Miller CSMA Carrier Sense Multiple Access
11:13:11
11:13:11 From Jeff Miller Recent mesh work ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LoRa )
11:14:56 From Jeff Miller (a discussion of radio-networked Federated Wiki networks; how easy/difficult it is to distribute user installations of FedWiki and maintaining them, ongoing)
11:15:03 From Robert Best Sorry, I've been distracted trying to enable HTTP on Brian's site 😜 so I've missed the last little bit.
11:15:39 From Jeff Miller "A lot of gardening in the systems administration of a computer, even a little one like a Raspberry Pi" - Eric. Is this something that commercial systems have "solved" by apps and update streams, or OS versions and update streams?
11:17:04 From Jeff Miller Ward's example of central curation as a "solution" for managing digital assets going forward; those central managers aren't necessarily well-aligned. (interest-wise, the photo archive service vs. the photographer)
11:18:25 From Jeff Miller Marc asks about protecting future use of the federation protocols in spite of damage to the affordances of the Internet.
11:21:18
11:21:18 From Marc Pierson Eric, an answer to your question is how can Wiki Cafe be localized in the absence of internet or Wiki Cafe.
11:22:15 From Jeff Miller Ward describes the circumstantial needs of setting up a new wireless wiki node - changing over time as the common equipment setup changes. Would there be a way of priming a kit that could set itself up, as a package? (Raspberry Pi + power supply + memory card + ...) vs. a subscription to the managed wikis on WikiCafe physical sourcing is tough!
11:23:23 From Jeff Miller (based on my observing Kickstarters with physical rewards)
11:23:36 From Brian I've installed Eric's docker on a RPi. It was quite easy.
11:24:19 From Paul Rodwell http://pi.fed.wiki.org/view/welcome-visitors
11:24:26 From Eric Dobbs http://pi.fed.wiki.org/raspberry-pi-federated-wiki.html
11:26:49 From Jeff Miller hard to find a loadable phone (but available for hobbyists and specialists) parallel local networking is already something that I would expect there are industrial solutions to?
11:28:08 From Jeff Miller (although the solutions often cheap-out, thus there are indexes of security cameras on the Internet) interoperability as a continued challenge
11:29:52 From Jeff Miller I have a lot of sympathy for Brian Marick's confusion, because it takes a long time for me to get warm to software contexts.
11:31:37 From Jeff Miller "Can we create a guide or introduction that has a friendly learning path?" and "Who does this? Who needs it?" as open questions. even in 1948, Norbert Wiener pointing to the dangers of the first half of the 20th century repeating itself
11:32:44 From Jeff Miller (to Stafford Beer's pointers in the 1970s about the mess of mismanaged complexity)
11:32:54 From Robert Best Strangely, even on my own site I'm just not allowed to do HTTP when in incognito... Even with the trick of adding :80 Only in non-incognito can I get my site over HTTP.
11:34:15 From Jeff Miller Maybe Incognito Mode has higher security wired in?
11:34:31 From Brian I'm not sure the current semantics and implementation are conducive to a "friendly guide". The current model is very ammeniable to having a friend show you and talk you through the quirks and I'm not sure that isn't a better way in the long run...but it's contrary to what people are expecting, so maybe that is the gap that would have the most benefit...So a friend "walk through" guide and suggest that people are interested connect with community member and get a walkthrough.
11:35:06 From Jeff Miller Very much the "friendly acquaintances around the computer lab" model minus computer labs
11:35:48 From Marc Pierson There is a repeating lesson that businesses and governments are not structurally capable of creating desirable futures for the populace. It requires volunteer civil development—such as has been occurring here for more than a decade. All starting with peer programing in my opinion. Even peer programing was tolerated in a company it was not a company policy.
11:36:33 From Jeff Miller Even the senior SREs at Netflix have to be prepared to wait for terrible incidents in order to get resilience prioritized.
11:37:56 From Jeff Miller (Remote and async disconnects some of the System 2 gossip protocol knowledge transfer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viable_system_model (oh gosh dealing with steering toward velocity at work myself)
11:38:51 From Marc Pierson Extending the gardening metaphor, new seeds don’t often grow in hostile environments.
11:38:55 From Jeff Miller or rather trying to deal with that steering Eric observes that there may be a discipline for visualizing relationships that will help decision makers realize that there are dangerously unmanaged connections.
11:39:57 From Jeff Miller (paraphrase of Eric's reflection to Marc on the VSM)
11:41:10 From Jeff Miller "The homeostatic relationships between the systems are the strongest missing concept in attempts to communicate and learn VSM" ~
11:42:34 From Brian My CLD that I came up with last week was: safety -> conversation -> action -> trust -> safety
11:43:09 From Jeff Miller That looks like a reinforcing loop though "action" might have secondary effects
11:44:18 From Jeff Miller "homeostat" - the missing concept in post-WW2 recovery; stabilization is missing. (Stafford Beer lecture)
11:44:31 From Brian In the sense that the correlation coefficicents are postive, I think it's true that it's reinforcing...but I think the correlation is strong, so negative actions decrease trust, decrease safety, decrease conversations, etc.
11:44:33 From Jeff Miller keeping the lights on
11:45:38 From Jeff Miller Ashby's Homeostat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostat
11:45:42 From Brian A self modifying PID thing...
11:47:03 From Brian "We are our environment"
11:48:28 From Paul Rodwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis
11:49:37 From Jeff Miller "an adaptive machine, not a control machine"
11:49:53 From Paul Rodwell https://www.jameslovelock.org/atmospheric-homeostasis-by-and-for-the-biosphere-the-gaia-hypothesis/
11:50:18 From Jeff Miller (Marc to Ward on communicating an essential concept missing from VSM as practiced)
11:53:29
11:53:29 From Jeff Miller "When are we outside the range of our model assumptions?" as a question mostly unasked
11:53:31 From Eric Dobbs https://resiliencefoundations.github.io/overview.html
11:55:22 From Jeff Miller start-ups: typically are an episode but not a system
11:55:28 From Marc Pierson Notes From the Underground makes the point that viability is not universal goal.
11:55:30 From Jeff Miller burn all your resources to achieve orbit where "achieve orbit" is to connect with a different larger system
11:56:38 From Jeff Miller Whether "larger system" is the capital markets or an acquirer who wants their proprietary goods, or to take out a possible competitor. "What hidden system is trying to be viable?"
11:58:37 From Jeff Miller https://www.flir.com/about/company-history/ "Teledyne FLIR"
11:59:16 From Brian Related to surge capacity
11:59:45 From Jeff Miller Ward offers an anecdote about the founder of FLIR who had to mortgage the family home to make payroll.
12:01:48 From Brian Frequent offsite working lunches is a way that I've seen that work pretty well.
12:02:24 From Paul Rodwell I need to leave…
12:02:26 From Jeff Miller I go to the office to try and absorb context in a team that mostly works distributed and async. bye Paul! (and thanks for all the links!)
12:03:09 From Marc Pierson The opposite of reciprocity is “free riding"
12:03:12 From Jeff Miller trust that the neighbor's signal of need is one that you can step up and support (Elinor Ostrom's area of interest)
12:04:37 From Brian Jeff, it's a lot harder not face to face. The "chance" meeting has a certain vibe where people tend to be less formal and more trust exploring...hard to do with a scheduled call or meeting, but somehow, going to lunch often works.
12:04:38 From Jeff Miller Leadership is something i wonder if should not be a role but a function.
12:05:01 From Marc Pierson Eric, the algedonic channel is what you are looking for.
12:06:04 From Marc Pierson Most companies don’t encourage that channel. This press and whistle blowers are the external replacement for missing algedonic channels.
12:06:31 From Brian "AI applied to code is like using opiods for pain treatment" -- Maston quote I saw this week.
12:06:51 From Marc Pierson If there was ever a role that should have an algenonic channel is it your job Eric!!!
12:06:54 From Brian I've seen a huge uptick in senior positions being advertised in the last month.
12:08:22 From Jeff Miller Azure (from an insider's perspective) was pretty friendly to internal customers via office hours. skyboxes? (to Brian's question to Eric about influence)
12:10:44 From Jeff Miller oh gosh the whitewashing up the hierarchy yes, learning from painful incidents is helpful - that doesn't mean pain is something you want more of
12:12:14 From Jeff Miller (Eric reflects deliberately introducing "SNAFU" in a communication) alghedonic pain-pleasure
12:12:25 From Pete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algedonic_signal
12:12:42 From Jeff Miller thanks Pete! they dropped the h Brian: that's pretty inspired! "hey I have some extra hockey season tickets"
12:13:39 From Pete Gotta go ... thanks for all the fish!
12:14:40 From Brian Bye Pete.
12:16:38 From Eric Dobbs https://wander.dbbs.co/six-levels-down.html
12:17:24 From Jeff Miller (a callback to Elasticsearch at Netflix https://netflixtechblog.com/reverse-searching-netflixs-federated-graph-222ac5d23576 )
12:18:56 From Jeff Miller experienential Q and A to reveal expertise (Eric's link) oops experiential
12:19:28 From Marc Pierson That is how I finally learned more of Kerry’s knowledge. Watching/listening to her DO IT.
12:20:21 From Jeff Miller There's a flavor of Marick's Maxim in that - demonstrating examples of THIS is one, HERE is another, ALSO this one. If the examples are compelling it motivates interest. And Marc's suggestion of the DDD conference as a good platform for demonstrating strong examples is good.
12:22:50 From Jeff Miller hiring for celebrity status as a possible motivation ("I'm a peacock feather.") attraction of people with common interests
12:25:42
12:25:42 From Jeff Miller Microsoft does have a pretty strong operational culture (from my year there) but isn't so good at fostering collaboration.
12:26:35 From Marc Pierson Eric, I would like to see a diagram of how you think resilience engineering SHOULD fit into a company? Only software???
12:28:07 From Jeff Miller Ward offers an anecdote for building a knowledge portal at the Eclipse Foundation to make Bjorn Freeman-Benson's job easier. Build something that's a fresh solution to someone else's problem - Ward's orientation to work.
12:30:57
12:30:57 From Marc Pierson Ward was understood to be an “idea person” or a general purpose problem solver. What “” are you Eric.
12:31:23 From Jeff Miller What would offer Eric the ability to be described as "the person who fits this opportunity?" / "the type of person we want for (...)?" Ward: finds relevant problems that can be solved ("Staff Engineer")
12:31:39 From Eric Dobbs The core mechanic I have learned from Adaptive Capacity Labs is incident analysis. Basically having campfire conversations with the people involved in incidents and then producing a document that synthesizes the collection of insights from those conversations. The difficulty I have found is that leaders don’t have time to read and understand and apply the insights. My hypothesis in approaching Explore DDD is that companies will spend as little as they possibly can on reliability. So if I can find resilience engineering approaches on the design side of software, there will be a bigger addressable market.
12:32:25 From Jeff Miller Incidents = Revelations
12:33:07 From Brian The adage of no one having enough money to do it right the first time, but have lots of money to re-write when it fails...
12:33:22 From Jeff Miller Revelations = openings for change; so be ready to move when an incident creates an opening. no one wants to overpay for insurance
12:34:24 From Jeff Miller So finding other ways into that same wisdom and give it a home in decision-makers' minds.
12:35:04 From Brian Resources * time * quality * scope = constant...pick any 3.
12:35:23 From Jeff Miller it's hard to build in some functions after the fact security and reliability tend to be excluded until there's a pretty fierce disaster
12:35:54 From Brian "Invest in yourself for the benefit of whomever your future employer is."
12:36:28 From Marc Pierson Reacted to ""Invest in yourself ..." with 👍
12:36:31 From Jeff Miller (Part of why I love the punk resilience nature of crash-only systems is that they point directly toward recovery rather than avoiding failures)
12:37:53 From Marc Pierson I have to leave pretty soon.
12:38:03 From Jeff Miller An ICU's patient meal tray is repurposed as a communication list of patient's needs as a cognitive artifact and a hand-off of the patient's needs from nurse to nurse (Eric's anecdote for cognitive artifacts)
12:39:27 From Brian At end of day, you are selling yourself, to your future boss,that you can solve problems that your boss has. Part of that includes a rich set of tools, experiences, and expertise in given area...but really, it's that you show up every day and focus on solving their problems.
12:39:43 From Jeff Miller (Eric reflects on LLMs as a thing to be managed be looking what goes in and out of the generative process - how to think about inputs and outputs as cognitive artifacts for the users)
12:40:11 From Marc Pierson Reacted to "At end of day, you a..." with 👍
12:40:43 From Jeff Miller "This is the process that we use to solve the problems that we bring in with adding a generative model system." - Ward's suggestion for how to frame Eric's work value proposition.
12:40:52 From Marc Pierson And make offers before they make requests. Offers “they can’t refuse."
12:41:19 From Brian Anticipating your bosses needs and problems is a huge advantage if you can get to that level.
12:41:29 From Jeff Miller bring a QR code with your contact info to DDD!
12:42:37 From Jeff Miller (I was doing that when I was going to hiring conferences - contact info and some sample works/portfolio)
12:43:04 From Brian DDD is a gui front end to GDB, right? :)
12:43:05 From Jeff Miller David Woods at Three Mile Island - understanding and inventing new techniques for decision analysis within the incident context hahaha Brian two different kinds of signals disagreeing at Three Mile Island there was a steam bubble displacing water
12:44:42 From Jeff Miller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident "We hadn't been trained on sensor failure."
12:46:20 From Jeff Miller "simplify your business so that you can make more money" (that you can encounter failures less frequently, recover more quickly)
12:48:30 From Jeff Miller Get an intern to build dashboards as you discover interesting relationships related to operational parameters? (chiming along with Brian: managers love dashboards)
12:48:40 From Marc Pierson Praxis
12:49:16 From Jeff Miller academics who can advocate for resilience based on experience reports? (business school sorts of theory-of-the-applied?) oh gosh even containerized shipping as a complexity management story (alongside other sorts of risk management)