Typescript 2024-01-28

09:17:41

09:17:41 From Jeff Miller second time is the charm

09:18:59 From Jeff Miller backpressure in a distributed processing pipeline, implemented by having the pipe break?

09:19:45 From Brian Jeff, I have love/hate memories of tomcat...lol.

09:20:34 From Jeff Miller HttpRequestContext / HttpResponseContext :) "I worked at Sun Microsystems and all they gave me was..."

(transcriber note: Jeff has visible in the Zoom view a coffee mug with the Tomcat servlet engine logo from Sun Microsystems, a three-legged semi-abstract cat)

09:21:28 From Brian :)

09:21:47 From Jeff Miller Jon Postel's Law plus IETF bake-offs for protocol implementations

09:22:08 From Brian Its been pretty successful with all the RFC/internet.

09:22:41 From Jeff Miller I keep wondering if I had joined Cisco whether I might have ended up closer to RFC-land.

09:23:10 From Brian I guess x86 still runs... Probably z80 as well...

09:23:22 From Jeff Miller cgi-bin is not dead, watch your overcoat

09:23:47 From Pete BTW for precise relative times in Javascript / nodejs can use high-resolution timer process.hrtime() : https://nodejs.org/api/process.html#processhrtimetime

09:23:49 From Jeff Miller virtual machine snapshot AutoLisp probably still runs someplace.

09:25:17 From Brian Didn't do it in flash...fortunately.

09:25:19 From Jeff Miller ActivePapers just was noted as archived by Greg Wilson - "because the stack has breaking changes at all levels" X11, A Programmer's Guide ?

09:26:20 From Brian Helping tech people write books.

09:26:24 From Jeff Miller O'Reilly - the leading edge (Tim O'Reilly's business model of finding the leading edge of interesting technology by following alpha geeks) "SVG Essentials" (I used the Slippery Rock University guide to SVG, and ended up really surprised by things that weren't covered)

09:28:21 From Brian P. Graham "Hundred year language" https://paulgraham.com/hundred.html

09:28:39 From Jeff Miller Eric Dobbs reports a long-lived SVG+JS program about animating a vanishing point, using O'Reilly's "SVG Essentials", a tip about Javascript being inspired by Lisp and Self, Paul Graham's notes about "Growing a Language" Java 1.1.6! wow, you could get a Smalltalk VM that supported that version.

09:29:45 From Eric Dobbs Paul Graham’s book is title On Lisp. And it shows examples of growing a language. Ward recalls that Guy Steele wrote a paper by that title which seems most likely to be where Graham learned it.

09:29:48 From Jeff Miller (general discussion about what programs can last a generation, can be learned and studied) ty Eric!

09:30:15 From Pete UCSD Pascal might be available someplace: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCSD_Pascal

09:30:18 From Jeff Miller UCSD p-System probably runs somewhere?

09:30:33 From Brian The "being popular" P. Graham https://paulgraham.com/popular.html

09:30:35 From Jeff Miller early bytecode system

09:30:37 From Brian UCSD Pascal. P-Code.

09:30:55 From Pete I wonder if Turbo Pascal is available somewhere

09:31:12 From Jeff Miller likely someone has liberated it - it was super super fast though maybe you would have to run it inside a VM

09:31:44 From Brian https://sourceforge.net/projects/turbopascal-wdb/ sketchy sourceforge link... for turbo pascal with doxbox er, dosbox.

09:32:28 From Jeff Miller card-image structured files and records I remember TREK.EXE in FORTRAN being interesting for the string output formatting

09:33:39 From Jeff Miller It had its own string processing library built-in for buffered templated output.

09:33:59 From Pete Free Pascal and Lazarus Wiki - Turbo Pascal and Delphi open-source clones: https://wiki.freepascal.org/Main_Page

09:34:06 From Jeff Miller Strings are difficult because of the different workflows and ways people like to use them. Delphi seemed (at second-hand report) to be a well-done successor to Pascal.

09:34:34 From Pete UTF-8 etc.

09:34:51 From Jeff Miller XKCD "Standards" :) JODA-Time is pretty good as a snap-in adoption. It was NTT NTT gave us emojis we could not resist the cute and then there were new emojis every year

09:36:41 From Jeff Miller An irresistible disaster

09:37:04 From Brian Composing characters into a "painting"

09:37:18 From Jeff Miller My particular gripe was the Unicode flag for "render this as emoji" rather than "render this as a glyph from the regular language".

09:38:19 From Brian "tokens" rather than words... The "unspoken" words...

09:38:37 From Jeff Miller https://www.jeli.io/ - "Respond Faster, See Patterns, Learn From Your Incidents" Eric relates that the way which experts hold context which is unexpressed in words. LLMs have context which leans very hard into "the words preceding the next possible word"

09:39:42 From Pete Like Star Treg episode "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra"

09:39:43 From Jeff Miller expertise vs. LLMs oh yes, very yes "Darmok" is the Darmok of these times.

09:40:23 From Paul Rodwell and they added super/sub script numbers, but not all numbers (2 and 3 missing?)

09:40:59 From Jeff Miller Eric relates that the LLM analysis of a recent incident had gotten the summary of the recent chats / causal issue DIRECTLY BACKWARDS. Part of the story in Eric's operational incident was a missing piece - "no evidence in this datacenter" - but the LLM read the human ops messages and transposed cause and effect.

09:42:08 From Jeff Miller LLMs as Grima Wormtongue, a flatterer and plausible counselor. "Experts talking to experts in the moment talk in a shorthand based on a tremendous amount of context." - Ward's summary

09:43:28 From Pete Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra - aTamarian allegorical language used in StarTrek episode STTNG 102 (Joe Menosky 1991-09-31) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok

09:43:29 From Jeff Miller from Brian: "The presentation of the vernacular is a proxy for the hidden knowledge of the expert - the refinement of the spoken part of the word - so we'll have to find a new proxy variable for the knowledge structure."

09:43:39 From Paul Rodwell Replying to "and they added super..." or rather that they are not in sequence - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_subscripts_and_superscripts#Superscripts_and_subscripts_block

09:43:46 From Jeff Miller Pete: appreciate the reference, it is ON POINT.

09:44:35 From Paul Rodwell Replying to "and they added super..." referring back to earlier character topic

09:45:07 From Jeff Miller Replying to "and they added super..." oh right, strange blocks not corresponding in particular ways if you'd designed the blocks from scratch for scannability? Replying to "and they added super..." maybe super 2 and super 3 were included in a previous block?

09:45:33 From Brian Good "clicks" vs not quite "right"

09:46:39 From Paul Rodwell Replying to "and they added super..." as was 1, being in the Latin-1 range.

09:46:50 From Jeff Miller Ward relates a story about returning from a ski trip, crossing Northern Indiana, accelerating up a hill - and the loud engine noise ceased - at the bottom of the hill was "Clark's Used Auto Parts" - "we can rebuild it for you!" "Change your oil frequently!" (a Pontiac timing chain break)

09:47:33 From Paul Rodwell just be thankful you don’t have a engine with a wet belt, thank you Ford...

09:49:39 From Jeff Miller I did have an instrumentation based engine failure once - apparently the '81 Mazda GLC has a vulnerability in the oil pressure sensor seal.

09:50:15 From Pete Relation to software: adding extra instrumentation to code adds more lines of code which themselves can be failure points

09:50:44 From Jeff Miller Yes, this is true - it's a source of potential overhead and flaw injection. Then there's all the aspect oriented container based behavior injection which usually works.

09:52:06 From Jeff Miller "slowly powering up old computers to re-form the capacitors in the power supply by increasing voltage gradually" - Ward notes, re long-term program survival.

09:52:24 From Brian My earliest programs were probably Farenheit to Celcius conversion in BASIC. Very low confidence any of the media would be good, even if it still exists...

09:52:55 From Jeff Miller BASIC, yes, madlibs style generators, dot graphics, a transcription of a book on planetary position computation

09:53:16 From Brian I did a lot with LogoWriter Turtle graphics...

09:53:42 From Jeff Miller and special dot-matrix printer output for characters that weren't in the standard set. I remember an academic programmer carrying around his personal software library on a nine-track tape.

09:55:04 From Jeff Miller (University of Washington, probably the 1980s)

09:55:05 From Pete HP programmable calculator programs?

09:55:07 From Brian Should've kept the punch cards...they would still be readable...

09:55:19 From Jeff Miller printouts, OCR, :)

09:55:50 From Pete upside-down 7-segment display: 58008

09:56:18 From Jeff Miller upside-down 7-segment display: Texas Instruments LED desk calculator games. SHELL OIL

09:57:23 From Paul Rodwell https://www.catalystlearninglabs.org/

09:57:42 From Jeff Miller PerlWiki was small and hackable for personal projects. (Still an pattern of asset folders being a separate thing, for images)

09:58:44 From Jeff Miller <!-- This is Squarespace. --><!-- tunny-parakeet-jlsw --> (Catalyst Learning Labs) the ten thousand year clock has no software "Numerical Recipes in C" ?

09:59:51 From Jeff Miller "an append-only historical record of tagged items" The Spring and Autumn Annals, for community decision making, Architectural Decision Records ?

10:01:09 From Jeff Miller Ward relates the early history of Federated Wiki (at Nike) with weekly development videos Weren't there pretty strong TwinPages? C2Wiki, MeatballWiki ?

10:02:47 From Jeff Miller Brian reflects: what part of the Federated Wiki content should be considered permanent? What part is volatile, transient, evolving? (thinking of the Catalyst Learning Labs linking into Federated Wiki) Ward reflects on Wikipedia: a commitment to using redirection, of ensuring images and other content are licensed, some practices around the pages, etc.

10:04:18 From Jeff Miller "Here's a page which seems stable, should we move it into a MediaWiki-like repository?" - Brian

10:06:09 From Jeff Miller (Ward and Paul reflect on an archive format / mechanism for FedWiki which was implemented)

10:06:37 From Paul Rodwell maybe archive to something like Noosphere? https://subconscious.network/ large site-index are more a problem than sitemaps…

10:07:48 From Jeff Miller Ward reflects on an import of C2 Wiki via keyword search - there have been attempts to migrate the C2 pages, somewhat hindered by C2 being large and not particularly structured. not being overcomplicated in mechanism not being overdependent on consistent metadata (helping wiki content being persistent)

10:09:53 From Jeff Miller Brian asks about "how about the JS rendering by item type? Do you preserve those plugins?"

Ward says: "the JSON has the content, even if you don't have the plugin in place; however we have an Assets issue related to complexity; the rules are more complicated than for sharing page content."

10:11:22 From Jeff Miller search load somewhat on the server? (if you're online) Brian thinks about "large site maps / indexes" and where should search happen? Paul reflects that the full-text site index can be large, and can burden the client.

10:12:38 From Jeff Miller (Ward has experienced having a tablet / tablet browser crash on large site index searches) embedded old-fashioned images in base64?

10:13:52 From Jeff Miller data:image/png,base64 ? Unusual page structures - like Ralf's zettelkasten

10:14:57 From Jeff Miller Unusual neighborhood structure "recent activity on the Federation" stumbles over unusual structure and activity

10:15:44 From Paul Rodwell yes, some people have embedded BASE64 images in html plugins

10:17:49 From Brian In going through Marc's pages, consistency with treatment of BASE64, assets, and such would be a great thing to make more regular, maybe even with a specification or an API/interface.

10:17:52 From Jeff Miller Jeff's report on using emoji in the browser: "Your mileage WILL vary" canonical migrations of a wiki?

10:19:14 From Jeff Miller Eric's ongoing puzzle: "can I create a static wiki which plays well with the rest of the federation?" (for reflecting on long-term persistence) Eric describes validators for the files which make wiki work well as a participant in the federation.

10:20:26 From Jeff Miller (silent, intense enthusiasm for Eric's efforts) Eric describes exporting an asset derived from Observable, with a small frame script in a local wiki. "I want to be able to test doing http and https"

10:22:06 From Jeff Miller "I can't fetch http URLs from an https source site and use it in scripts - thanks Mozilla and Chrome - but I can use http and https in a localhost context" Eric points to a couple of DIV elements at the top of the Wiki Docbase Auditor which receive the results of the auditing.

10:23:15 From Paul Rodwell for Eric - page from Observable about reverting a page to a previous state.

10:23:43 From Marc Pierson I am late because I continued to participate in an amazing presentation Kerry did at Pille’s SLOW group meeting. Went very long because it was that good.

10:24:15 From Jeff Miller The files of interest include: HTTP favicon, sitemap, sitesearch, welcome; also HTTPS favicon, sitemap, sitesearch, welcome

10:24:38 From Marc Pierson If we have time today I would like Ward and Pete’s attention on some OPM Neo4j FedWiki work I did yesterday.

10:24:51 From Jeff Miller red light: failure to fetch
light blue: HEAD worked
dark blue: GET worked

10:25:58 From Jeff Miller The page takes input as the domain without http or https (the DNS name of the federated wiki server) - and the tool allows inspecting the site for the presence of these files. fed.wiki.org - "reference FedWiki implementation" eu.wiki.org - "http and https working"

10:27:56 From Jeff Miller wander.dbbs.co - "my static sites are doing http and https" - exports a local wiki folder and the source code for the wiki client into a static website. Ward recommends: "you should implement the fedwiki alias convention of .html perhaps" (as an alias for the page name path)

10:29:46 From Jeff Miller Eric relates: there's an experiment worth performing where I just leave the HTML files up ... except that I need the JSON in order to play well for the reference clients -- but I can do something like embed the schema in the static HTML header using LINK attributes. "I don't think that HEAD and LINK will go away - so I can store URLs there"

10:30:49 From Jeff Miller (in the general sense of making FedWiki long-term operable without necessarily needing a complex server mechanism) Ward reflects: Eric is experimenting with how much latitude that he has to make things work as part of the wiki federation.

10:32:10 From Jeff Miller Eric says: I recall that Alan Kay said that in order for programs to last, they need to be able to negotiate exchange protocols - like modem negotiation.

10:32:27 From Paul Rodwell the 404 page should be able to handle the .html links.

10:33:10 From Jeff Miller Ward says: and these days, the negotiation is typically automatic - that most travel electrics take 110V/220V, and that Internet (wire protocols) are ubiquitous.

10:33:33 From Paul Rodwell The touches on the ideas in a recent Causal Islands podcast - https://fission.codes/blog/causal-islands-podcast-ep05-subconscious-building-a-second-brain/

10:33:51 From Jeff Miller Ward suggests: you should have your application negotiation play the modem tones.

10:34:30 From Paul Rodwell Willow/Earthstar is also in the same space, of creating a new protocol for the future.

10:35:13 From Jeff Miller Eric reflects: one of my Boulder acquaintances, part of a local ISP - Spike - what can progressive/personal webapps do? "Almost everything that a mobile app can do, except on iOS, you can't search for it in the mobile store."

10:36:18 From Jeff Miller Ward reflects that there was a recent EU decision about alternate Apple stores.

Paul confirms: "yes, probably a bad move, since iOS App Store is carefully curated against malware." The Android web store was sort of the opposite - you couldn't search for "no ads" or "no extra permissions" - to encourage many pieces of software.

10:37:33 From Pete https://techcrunch.com/2024/01/25/epic-games-ceo-calls-out-apples-dma-rules-as-malicious-compliance-and-full-of-junk-fees/

10:37:58 From Jeff Miller There was an independent guide which scraped Android's app store - but Android kept changing their format until the independent guide gave up. Eric relates: Apple has offered a devil's bargain - "at 30% of your revenues, you will get a guaranteed smooth distribution and installation for your software."

10:39:38 From Jeff Miller Eric says: perhaps 30% is fair overhead for the engineering; but it's not fair that all apps must go through the iPhone / iOS app store.

10:40:50 From Pete "absolute power corrupts absolutely"

10:40:55 From Jeff Miller (My pal, a UX designer - "Apple stands alone in what it has done for integrated design - but they have absolutely used their leverage to create a walled garden.")

10:41:13 From Paul Rodwell Apple redecorates its iPhone prison to appease Europe - https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/27/apple_europe_ios_analysis

10:41:25 From Jeff Miller the Browser Wars, Chapter XIII

10:43:01 From Paul Rodwell https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-app-marketplace-in-the-eu/

10:43:10 From Jeff Miller Brian wonders: "What's the minimum amount of free time to reimplement the big-company infrastructure?" Pete reflects: "Well, maybe if someone is independently wealthy or retired..." Patreon? Creator Co-op?

10:44:16 From Jeff Miller archive.org snapshots of Google Search (ha ha almost kidding)

10:45:25 From Ward Cunningham Power in the context of evolution: https://www.ucdavis.edu/blog/geerat-vermeij-discusses-new-book-evolution-power-new-understanding-history-life

10:45:29 From Jeff Miller volts: electrical potential;
watts: electricity applied.

10:46:59 From Brian WRT host a wiki in a "static" environment. Relatedly, I'd like to find a <$5/mo type fed-wiki instance, even if it wasn't 100% compliant with all the plugins. For example, set something up for my parents that is mostly a blog, but they own the data and content, or atelast have more control than if it were on a hosted blog platform.

10:46:59 From Paul Rodwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_United_Kingdom

10:48:45 From Jeff Miller Marc asks about Eric's notion of a reference implementation of FedWiki - "the working model that everyone refers to" "npm install wiki" - reference implementation

10:49:57 From Jeff Miller Eric reflects: "What might we do differently, given what we've learned in the last ten years? And how can a different wiki mechanism, underlying wiki, can continue to interoperate with the federation."

10:50:59 From Jeff Miller Eric and Ward reflect on the history of C2 drawing a lot of the traffic even when there were multiple wikis intended for similar conversational interactions among varying topics. Brian suggests a way of describing "this is a wiki about [...] which likes to interact [...]" Ward recalls a pod of people where a group of shared wikis in conversation should have a charter - a suggestion from Mike Caulfield (about year 2).

10:52:11 From Jeff Miller We often use the word "pod" but rarely write charters. Brian thinks: your content might belong in / reflect in / interact with different pods. "I want all of Ward's stuff on [topic]" where [topic] might relate to a pod.

10:53:45 From Pete UDDI for people

10:53:49 From Jeff Miller Eric reflects: "This relates to Marc's concepts of community - a neighborhood might include folks who are geographically connected, but who also have distributed community connections around specific topics outside that locality." Can diverse software participate in a shared protocol? To some extent, Mastodon and ActivityPub are exploring this space.

10:54:57 From Pete Finding "community" nowadays is via social media, @tags and following similar people/orgs on those channels

10:55:11 From Jeff Miller ActivityPub as a protocol hosts various sorts of federated services - from things like Mastodon microblogging, to things closer to discussion groups (Lemmy ?) and photo sharing sites.

10:55:48 From Brian Marc, if you pursue your Python interests, https://policykit.org/static/policyengine/pdf/policykit_uist2020.pdf appears to be a toolkit for some of the governence automation.

10:56:02 From Jeff Miller "How do you take a project which originated in exploring your neighborhood during a pandemic, which could be shared and used over time?"

10:56:47 From Marc Pierson I hope we find a word for community that enhances the whole-in-the-parts-the parts-in-the whole

10:57:09 From Pete Universal Description, Discovery, and Integration UDDI was from SOAP / webservices in 2000 , kind of a new version of CORBA name service

10:57:15 From Marc Pierson Not just tenuous connections

10:57:16 From Jeff Miller Eric says: in large companies, engagement seems higher when users install an app - so the app is a thing pressed as a metric of success; yet if you want reach, then most people have old underpowered phones. (this was the notion of internet dot com - Facebook's move to capture the bottom 80%) apps, a ferocious treadmill "we're sacrificing access to most of the world by focusing on apps"

10:58:08 From Brian I see 10s-100s of ads from your company every day, so they are doing well on some metric... lol.

10:58:23 From Pete 'website' PWAs become lowest common denomitor

10:58:26 From Brian w3m?

10:58:27 From Jeff Miller text-based browsers lynx

10:58:42 From Marc Pierson We need a way to make visual (in diagrams?) the quality of whole-in-partness of communication channels and meetings and groups.

10:58:50 From Jeff Miller Federated Wiki tested vs. Lynx - it works, "sort of" screenreader capability - "if you turn off Javascript, it still works' The Java wiki client actually sort of worked, just chasing pointers and parsing JSON.

10:59:32 From Brian `w3m fed.wiki` works just fine.

11:00:05 From Jeff Miller "Hewing to what the browser can do is a good bet for longevity." - Eric

11:00:13 From Brian lynx fed.wiki works just fine as well.

11:00:39 From Ward Cunningham Did you just try lynx?

11:00:58 From Brian yes.

11:01:46 From Jeff Miller Eric relates: "your app becomes a monolith, which will become slow and intractable; app development eventually produces trouble for every mobile developer has Microsoft's problem of too many versions out there in the wild."

11:02:48 From Jeff Miller Paul notes that Electron (browser-mechanism app platform) has an aggressive update cycle of 8 months. Ward reflects that Dart and Flutter are an attempt to extract developers from some of the trouble here.

11:04:17 From Brian consoles, cli, and latex are good enough for me.

11:06:11 From Jeff Miller multiplatform Kotlin (Paul reflects) rug-pull from Unity

11:06:58 From Marc Pierson When ready for a detour let me know.

11:07:28 From Paul Rodwell https://www.jetbrains.com/kotlin-multiplatform/

11:08:13 From Jeff Miller (afk)

11:14:09

11:14:09 From Paul Rodwell nice bit of ui there, need to click on ‘Back’ and not the back arrow???

11:20:08

11:20:08 From Brian isA, hasA

11:21:14 From Brian structural relations vs causal relations are both captured in OPM tool

11:25:24

11:25:24 From Brian CRC cards...which still come up from time to time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-responsibility-collaboration_card

11:26:46 From Brian The EIP diagram.

11:27:47 From Brian CSV is comma separated values (usually in text)

11:29:11 From Brian The cross-cutting concern turns into a boundary object...

11:33:35

11:33:35 From Jeff Miller <3 ty Brian and Paul!

11:34:55 From Jeff Miller Marc is exploring a large Miro board with the EIP Framework and many panels with specific points and exercises on each.

11:36:19 From Jeff Miller Ward reflects on being the curator of "El Dorado", having to understand the various groups' work at the level of "give me a day to discuss your work" now and again. "Some of the queries I wrote for El Dorado took me a day to figure out - but at 80 characters long, I could Slack that to someone and tell them: save this."

11:38:33 From Jeff Miller Marc shows an "inside-the-game" diagram, where you might unpack some of the detailed structure inside the institutions, first to improve them, and then to maintain them as they evolve.

11:39:01 From Paul Rodwell change the education - to include don’t drink the water or eat anything grown in the contaminated soil

11:39:48 From Jeff Miller Mary Parker Follett learned something from the Quakers - what she's telling me (Marc) is that "sitting together" is my only method - we need new methods here, to create wholes in parts, and parts in wholes, coming from meetings where communities get together.

11:39:57 From Brian Get people talking, and then get institutions talking.

11:41:22 From Jeff Miller Marc - types of meetings which already exist, which can have positive learning focuses. You don't want your group to become a crowd where there isn't any diversity - you want dramatically increasing the presence of individuals, not a submersion of individuals within the group - you want a fertile combination of diversity causing a flowering.

11:42:37 From Jeff Miller whole in the part, part in the whole dynamic - that dynamic leads to actual democracy; you can only learn it in neighborhood associations. There's already enough going on that you can learn to listen; that you can be safe as a member of the neighborhood to be present. (directly from Mary Parker Follett - neighborhood associations)

11:46:12

11:46:12 From Jeff Miller Marc reflects - here's copper as a common pool resource, locally governed land - how can we work with you, the mining company? How can we help you rehabilitate your reputation by doing this mining project using a seven-generations approach? If we can turn this project into a 200-year continuous extraction program (maybe with consultation from the Ostrom Center, which has ties to the local university) -- maybe we can re-envision the whole enterprise of mining. "Would you like to stop here with a 2-billion-dollar loss, or would you like a long-term positive relationship?"

11:47:19 From Jeff Miller Brian reflects: "this needs to be political, a socio-economical-political proposal."

11:48:31 From Jeff Miller Ward reflects: can we touch enough of the pieces that have a complete picture? (the EIP model of the Copper Corridor proposed new mining project near the headquarters of Queen Creek) With the EIP diagram, we can reflect on where things fit into the model - are there missing pieces? Are there relationships which we don't understand?

11:49:58 From Jeff Miller Marc considers the SoFi model as a good thing for the mining case and relationships around it.

11:51:16 From Jeff Miller Brian reflects that in the US and worldwide, we have to switch from a growth and discovery model to a sustainability model - there isn't a lot of free energy and free resources - and so I see a project like this - can we make the Copper Corridor thing sustainable? as a signal of the sort of thing we need to do more of. Marc appreciates Brian's help with the Miro board with panels illustrating and describing EIP.

11:52:48 From Jeff Miller Marc and Chris working together on the project, with Chris local to Superior and the Copper Corridor; with Marc having system modeling perspectives; with Brian as a helpful critic with clear advice. Ward reflects: this is a meeting where we allocate volunteer resources by interest; it's strongly creative, and that emerges in the long run.

11:55:40 From Brian People have the time, band width, luxery to be able to be thinking into/about the future

11:54:40 From Jeff Miller Ward reflects: how much pain can we remove from the transition to a more sustainable way of living which is being forced on us? We're here to use the technology and systems understanding, to use these perspectives to make the world a better place for more people?

11:55:49 From Jeff Miller Ward mentions: Clay Shirky's excess cognitive capacity - for many people - and what do we do with that? Marc points out that Grameen Banking was significantly run by working mothers, so they have some of that capacity for promoting positive cooperative change.

11:56:56 From Jeff Miller Ward has a demonstration to save for next time.

11:57:22 From Brian Synergy. :)

11:57:38 From Jeff Miller Ward: "I'd love to put Marc's thing in this model. Maybe it fits? Maybe there's a process for aspect-oriented, dare I say, programming, around it?" Patterns for Moldable Computing - a paper by Tudor Girba and (Oscar? Oskar?)

11:58:18 From Brian I'm going to prepare some lunch. I really enjoyed today's chat. Great things Eric and everyone. And a bookreport/review at some point.