Text extraction. See Typescript Archive
Sunday Explorers
09:08:16
09:08:16 From Jeff Miller Solving each others' problems. (a thanks to Pete Forsyth(e) for Zoom)
09:12:49
09:12:49 From Jeff Miller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_for_America
09:14:34 From Jeff Miller Chicago Crime Map as an early example of Google Maps API for civic data view
09:15:10 From Paul Rodwell possible alternative for Google search, via a thread by Maggie Appleton - https://twitter.com/Mappletons/status/1735406596472099186
09:16:29 From Jeff Miller Maggie Appleton's link is to Metaphor: https://search.metaphor.systems
09:18:29 From Jeff Miller Gene Bellinger; using Kumu (kumu.io) to work on causal loop diagrams; he has found LLM prompting useful for "adjacent topics". Marc demonstrates starting with https://causal-loop-demo.streamlit.app/
09:23:09
09:23:09 From Jeff Miller Thick lines are quick drivers ("days"); thin lines are slow drivers of change in the system dynamics ("weeks", "months").
09:24:04 From Paul Rodwell Is it just me, but red/green seem the wrong way round…
09:24:16 From Jeff Miller Red are all minus, green are plus so if you inverted Stress to Serenity or something, all of those would turn green. aha, I wonder if they're running Paper.js
09:25:32 From Paul Rodwell but red normally is bad, so would be making things worse - but here they are reducing something that could be bad (stress levels)
09:25:33 From Jeff Miller Paper.js is a ball and stick model behind the paint on the canvas. Right! red/green are reduce/increase here but not bad/good
09:26:16 From Pete Edward Tufte would have something to say on this
09:26:22 From Jan D. (er|he|they) paper.js is nice. Seemed like processing with a bit more hotdraw. Imagemaps: still nice for simple maps etc.
09:27:02 From Jeff Miller I was pretty happy with SVG to Paper except that text around a curve isn't supported. client-side imagemaps are a convenient sort of representation; does anyone support server-side image maps? (anymore)
09:29:35
09:29:35 From Jeff Miller https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/HTMLImageElement/isMap "only to be used in images located within an <a> element; disadvantages for accessibility over a client-side image map".
09:29:51 From Jan D. (er|he|they) server side image map support: dunno, one could probably easily render them to templates fed by JSON (or whatever database spits out). I think it is too rarly used to having battery-included image-Maps in Server (or Client side!) Frameworks.
09:31:48 From Paul Rodwell Replying to "Edward Tufte would h..." Links, Causal Arrows, Networks - https://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0001TV
09:31:56 From Robert Best Heat map?
09:32:52 From Jeff Miller Ward's demonstration from scanning activity of digital radio transmissions. One example comes from Kiribati -- a long series of transmissions from a sailing trip of a California radio club visiting.
09:34:21 From Jeff Miller Ward also has a playback of locations showing up on a base map centered on North America. Parana Brazil?
09:35:50 From Jeff Miller Holguin, Cuba. https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Holgu%C3%ADn¶ms=20_53_13_N_76_15_33_W_region:CU_type:city(1037161) (Ward demonstrates moving the map center around and seeing the less-frequent radio transmission locations)
09:40:08
09:40:08 From Brian https://docassemble.org/
09:40:17 From Eric Dobbs Ward asks Jeff for a report of his work at Recurse Center. Working with Alberto Tores (glamorous toolkit) and Michelle Burnstein (doc assemble supports someone composing a set of screens to file a legal form on the web).
09:40:49 From Brian Expand that for the IRS... Then make ChatGPT aware of it...
09:41:37 From Eric Dobbs Michelle was interested in better authoring tools or editing tools to improve these sprawling forms. Alberto led the effort of working through GT to investigate that inquiry
09:44:34
09:44:34 From Eric Dobbs Pretty rare for us to save the smalltalk image. The changes and investigations were made in a lepiter database
09:44:56 From Jeff Miller Metacello
09:45:35 From Eric Dobbs https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-metacello
09:46:01 From Paul Rodwell or https://github.com/Metacello/metacello ?
09:51:54
09:51:54 From Jeff Miller unsupporetd command -> unask the question -> "say it as literal text" unsupported command
09:53:28 From Marc Pierson Can I show Ward’s Item Tag Survey for discussion?
09:55:02 From Jeff Miller Note from Jeff: I'm interested in Alberto's continuing work, including publishing from Lepiter to web; I'm not at riding-the-bicycle level with Pharo and Glamorous Toolkit . Thanks to Ward for encouraging me to stay connected with GT over common points of interest between the GT community and FedWiki.
09:57:08 From Jeff Miller Marc demonstrates the result of a tag survey related to reading Mary Parker Follett's "The New State" from 1918; a early thinker in organizations using a systems approach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Parker_Follett
09:59:23 From Jan D. (er|he|they) Mary Parker Follett: I never read her books, but I noted her research, I think, via Karl Weick (probably); more for its dynamic than for its systemic approach.
09:59:42 From Jeff Miller https://newstate.relocalizecreativity.net/view/welcome-visitors/view/the-new-state/view/item-tag-survey/view/index/view/the-new-state-appendix
09:59:56 From Paul Rodwell If that was a html item, could use ` ` so it is visually a space
10:01:04 From Jeff Miller a tagged paragraph example from "The New Staet Appendix", with the tag ">> citizenship training" at the end. oops "The New State Appendix"
10:01:30 From Robert Best I think it might be more about what your browser defaults you to and remembers to do.. Your farm can do both protocols....
10:02:18 From Paul Rodwell It that the frame scripts are hosted on http, so don’t load on https sites
10:02:25 From Jeff Miller "Survey results from 12/17/2023, 10:01:55 AM." oops spelled "sterle" ?
10:03:55 From Robert Best Could the script know why it's not working and offer a quick click link to jump over? Or we think theres a better solution?
10:03:59 From Jeff Miller the paragraph and tag: The problem which many men have wrestled with in their lives -- whether they are to adhere to party or to be "independent" -- is futile. Personal honesty exhausts no man's duty in life; an effective life is what is demanded of us, and no isolated honesty gives us social effectiveness. When we go up to the gates of another world and say, "I have been honest, I have been pure, I have been diligent" -- no guardian of those Heavenly gates will fling them open for us, but we shall be faced with the counter thrust: "How have you used those qualities for making blossom the earth which was your inheritance? We want no sterile virtues here. Have you sold your inheritance for the pottage of personal purity, personal honesty, personal growth?" >> sterlevirtues
10:04:09 From Paul Rodwell as the scripts are all in a github repo, might be able to load from there… but would need to modify the loading of any helper modules to also be sourced from there… if the tags have the `data-id` that matches the item the tag was from…
10:07:52
10:07:52 From Jeff Miller when is a space a separator of tags? when is a space a separator of words within a tag? (Ward and Marc can work together to change the mechanics, since Marc is likely the only paragraph tagger)
10:08:43 From Brian (Existing_RE)+ would make it repeatable...then you'll get a list of matches, so have to handle that.
10:09:55 From Jeff Miller Ward notes his workflow when tagging images -- that sometimes a new meaning has emerged for a tag, and being able to find and adapt usage of a tag to a more specific refined meeting is helpful to making tags useful and meaningful.
10:10:23 From Paul Rodwell Replying to "if the tags have the..." but that would need each tag to be in an item of its own, unless…
10:10:34 From Jeff Miller find a tag; remove usages that no longer fit.
10:13:03 From Jeff Miller https://www.linkedin.com/in/vigdor-lurye-schreibman-86686822/ Vigdor Schreibman Listed as a missing person in 2019. https://oag.ca.gov/missing/person/vigdor-schreibman
10:16:05
10:16:05 From Jeff Miller The New State as HTML, extracted to an asset group in FedWiki. http://books.fed.wiki/assets/pages/the-new-state/index.html
10:16:47 From Paul Rodwell a PDF now long gone original html - http://www.channelingreality.com/education/mary_parker_follett_new_state.pdf
10:17:59 From Jeff Miller The anchor page for fetching The New State appears to be here: https://newstate.relocalizecreativity.net/view/the-new-state
10:18:33 From Jan D. (er|he|they) is it out of Copyright? it would be great if it could be brought to https://standardebooks.org/
10:18:53 From Jeff Miller Vigdor Schreibman's credit is at the bottom of the Internet Archive page here: https://web.archive.org/web/20071012043456/http://sunsite.utk.edu/FINS/Mary_Parker_Follett/Fins-MPF-01.html
10:20:23 From Jeff Miller Apparently (says archive dot org) available from 199-2013 on sunsite.utk.edu
10:23:08
10:23:08 From Jan D. (er|he|they) the original works should be free, according to Wikisource: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Mary_Parker_Follett
10:23:14 From Paul Rodwell the 1918 original on archive.org https://archive.org/details/cu31924016856209/mode/2up?ref=ol
10:23:46 From Jeff Miller @Jan D. (er|he|they) yes, 1918 should be OOC. Standard eBooks is a nice gift to all of us, a usability update from Gutenberg - I was reading Lud-in-the-Mist from their copy. https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/hope-mirrlees/lud-in-the-mist (a discussion between Marc and Ward about different wiki collaboration styles, reading and sharing pages, different ways that wiki authors organize their own sites, which ways are more fruitful for collaboration)
10:25:43 From Jeff Miller Note from Jeff M: some of the different styles discussion was on the Matrix channel, noting a number of separate and strong FedWiki site layout and connection styles; wiki haiku; zettelkasten;
10:25:45 From Jan D. (er|he|they) Replying to "@Jan D. (er|he|they)..." Don't know that book. You and Neil Gaiman like it, that speaks for it!
10:26:10 From Jeff Miller Replying to "@Jan D. (er|he|they)..." Legal fictions as a fantasy trope is rich for humor and thought. Replying to "@Jan D. (er|he|they)..." "Let's call fairy fruit, for the sake of law, imported silk." Replying to "@Jan D. (er|he|they)..." (I think that was one of the lines in Lud-in-the-Mist)
10:27:45 From Jeff Miller Marc describes how he and Chris are using Wiki and the EIP columns Ecology / Institutions / Politics where each column of EIP is a recursive containment
10:28:42 From Jan D. (er|he|they) Need to leave; happy to talk more about Mary P Follett another time (and I probably should probably talk about Karl Weick at some point)
10:28:50 From Jeff Miller "ecosystem of world / of hemisphere / of continent / ... / of watershed / of neighborhood" Good to see you Jan!
10:30:29 From Jeff Miller Discussion of EIP model connected with W. Ross Ashby's Viable System Model (Marc and Brian's work together) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Ross_Ashby https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viable_system_model
10:31:47 From Jeff Miller VSM also Stafford Beer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stafford_Beer
10:34:12 From Jeff Miller (Marc, Brian, and Chris working together, with Chris local to Superior, Arizona; Brian working with Marc on diagrams, design models, understandings - ways to represent the intentions and the work)
10:36:02 From Jeff Miller Kerry's artist contact providing an image to represent the notion of a cave drawing, capturing the important essence, which Marc and co. are using as a persistent reminder of the intentions.
10:36:24 From Robert Best Embed the miro board, and then it's JSON export into HSC or wiki beside it
10:36:44 From Jeff Miller an iconography of modern cavemen? (Ward imagines The Flintstones, for example)
10:37:38 From Eric Dobbs “That isn’t on the agenda” they say in the business meeting. “Let’s move that to the parking lot.” Phrases of gatekeeping the work in the meeting.
10:38:04 From Jeff Miller Marc identifies that presenting these techniques of information sharing and sense-making as NOT business and NOT government are important, acknowledging Ward's identification of a distinct iconography. (Nodding to Eric's recognition of business and government as narrowing the agenda of a meeting) Narrow the agenda to share task-focused information and decisions.
10:39:06 From Brian Agenda's are vital for business meetings. They set expectations and allow prioritization, if you need to attend, etc. I largely make it a rule of thumb that I automatically decline a meeting that doesn't have one...It's pretty effective for managing number of meetings I have.
10:39:26 From Robert Best Zoom's a better campfire than cave
10:39:42 From Jeff Miller "The campfire is a way and a mood we talk with each other; the cave drawing is a way that we keep what is relevant from our campfire conversations; a cave drawing can be POINTED TO."
10:39:57 From Brian Effectively, if someone wants my time in a meeting, then they need to think through their idea/concept/etc and forcing an agenda, often results that an email or phone call is a better medium and meeting isn't needed.
10:40:03 From Jeff Miller yes, Zoom is a campfire in that sense. The campfire is about WHO is there (a suggestion)?
10:41:05 From Jeff Miller (do some folks talk over others at a campfire? are there good practices?)
10:41:06 From Paul Rodwell the idea of a campfire also help define the group size, too big and you either get cold, or the fire is too big the conversation breaks into smaller groups
10:41:41 From Jeff Miller Marc shows 5 people around a campfire, with hands and questions and inspirations and things to say as stencils on a cave wall.
10:41:48 From Eric Dobbs Marc calls it cave drawing. I wrote it this way https://wiki.dbbs.co/joint-cognitive-whiteboard.html where my language is informed by Resilience Engineering paper https://www.researchgate.net/publication/227992178_Common_Ground_and_Coordination_in_Joint_Activity
10:42:11 From Jeff Miller (the "campfilre / cave drawings" image)
10:43:13 From Jeff Miller Brian describes a conference format with extended breaks and lunch, where the informal gatherings were recognized as the big win of getting those people together. cucumber sandwiches? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sm%C3%B8rrebr%C3%B8d
10:44:00 From Robert Best Miro + zoom chat APIs/exports piping into wiki/HSC...board takes over what we're all looking at instead of webcam grid view? Kinda like there's always a screen share going on but we all have pointers?
10:44:44 From Jeff Miller hmmmm (looking at Robert B's suggestion) Bjorn Freeman-Benson: "this food line is too fast! we need to slow it down so people will meet and talk" (a report from Ward on a conference food line)
10:46:43 From Jeff Miller Pete describes a case where "the process of writing this diagram was an important part of understanding" - but needed a guide to help make sense of what was shown, to convey it to new entrants.
10:47:14 From Brian bound to hotkeys or to search
10:47:29 From Jeff Miller I like Firefox and %-search for tabs. Marc says, to Pete's point - if people don't create their own diagrams, they're worthless - the cave diagram emerges as an extract of campfire conversations, and is meant for those who created it.
10:49:19 From Jeff Miller Pete comments on Wardley Mapping - that Wardley's insights are strong in understanding and organizing content out of interviews and accounts. Pete comments - Zettelkasten are difficult to follow for an outsider; they're not easy to absorb.
10:50:40 From Jeff Miller Thompson Morrison also realized that his own connected pages don't work as a book without a narrative - a book is a person's journey from page to page, with excursions in and out of the connected garden.
10:50:55 From Brian https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unzc731iCUY Patrick Winston's "How to speak" is great for ideas and techniques of framing stories.
10:51:36 From Jeff Miller https://ocw.mit.edu/how_to_speak "Patrick Winston’s How to Speak talk has been an MIT tradition for over 40 years. Offered every January during the Independent Activities Period (IAP), usually to overflow crowds, the talk is intended to improve your speaking ability in critical situations by teaching you a few heuristic rules. Professor Winston’s collection of rules is presented along with examples of their application in job-interview talks, thesis defenses, oral examinations, and lectures."
10:53:22 From Jeff Miller Marc describes a way of bringing people together, starting with a sense of place and people eating together, from his set of pictures from Sweden.
10:54:57 From Jeff Miller Brian notes about models versus measurement; if we have perfect models we don't need measurements; if we have perfect measurements we don't need models. The models and metaphors - they have value when you have incomplete information, and you're using crystallized knowledge from another domain with similar sets of relationshps in the context of another domain, to use the leverage of the dynamics in the old domain in the new domain. (a paraphrase for Brian to clarify if needed?)
10:56:35 From Jeff Miller Brian says: everything you're talking about has a spatial relationship of close and far, a way that your eyes scan a diagram or a screen -- part of what you are looking for is ways to structure your visual content to facilitate how you want people to FEEL about what they see in the pictures. Marc says: working with Chris, seeing how the people in the community are feeling about the work in the neighborhood, helps to show that that communication and feeling is happening.
10:58:11 From Jeff Miller Brian suggests: what are rules for being on a common topic wiki farm? Maybe in ability to modify topics and pages across the farm?
10:58:20 From Paul Rodwell An aside :: Thinking of campfires, and cave drawing -> oral tradition - maybe leads us to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_orality
10:58:58 From Jeff Miller "convening a farm on a topic" "convening a farm for a purpose" -> have a conversational set of for WHAT and HOW ? Brian relates the notion of "pick an audience", "pick a set of thoughts", "use some patterns" -> for example, Ward's pattern for first-paragraph to intro.
11:01:04 From Jeff Miller Farm patterns? dramatic identity as a wiki author? six thinking hats as wiki authors? individual named authors?
11:02:20 From Jeff Miller Marc points out that "every channel on this diagram communicating between layers on this diagram, that could be a FedWiki farm for a common set of topics for conversation" Ward mentions "active listening" as a technique; instead of responding, first say: "I heard you say THIS, and my thoughts on THIS are THAT".
11:04:00 From Jeff Miller Active listening gives the opportunity to have the original person reflect back on what was heard, maybe saying "you said it better than I did!" or "actually I was intending to say ..." Jeff considers ambiguity of a source of insight, as an artist's tool.
11:05:14 From Jeff Miller (thinking of viki.wiki and Victoria Campbell's farms of wikis)
11:05:54 From Paul Rodwell mishearing yielding serendipity…
11:06:08 From Jeff Miller yes, because all the contextual topics are active and mis-hearing is a little jiggle to the frame of mind Santhosh mentions the Self language Self gives you a UI and context to communicate.
11:07:32 From Jeff Miller Jeff notes: Javascript's prototype-based inheritance takes a feature from Self. Ward is setting up Santhosh with a wiki instance to work with. Or you can bring up your own site or farm elsewhere.
11:09:00 From Jeff Miller (after a year or two, or if you want to do more ambitious things with Federated Wiki)
11:15:10
11:15:10 From Jeff Miller Looking at my dojo page, I see a couple of suggestions that Ward gave me. http://san.dojo.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/hello.ward.bay.wiki.org/youre-new-here/view/about-flagmatic-plugin
11:16:18 From Jeff Miller repasting a suggestion into the chat from Ward's note about trying out "You're New Here" as a list of things. http://san.dojo.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/hello.ward.bay.wiki.org/youre-new-here/view/about-flagmatic-plugin
11:17:22 From Jeff Miller click on "wiki" in the bottom bar? oh good, I see it's checked drag a flag over into san.dojo ?
11:18:54 From Jeff Miller "The origin of a tab is the leftmost page's wiki server"
11:21:15 From Jeff Miller "Grab Ralf's page, hold it over the tab for your own wiki until it opens, then drop it. When you fork it, it becomes a copy on your own wiki."
11:21:41 From Brian There is the download to upload option and maybe there is a way when both sites are in lineup...
11:24:35
11:24:35 From Jeff Miller green glow / blue glow / yellow glow
11:25:08 From Paul Rodwell green glow - plugin pages
11:25:10 From Jeff Miller http://san.dojo.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/how-to-wiki/fed.wiki.org/field-guide-to-the-federation
11:25:19 From Paul Rodwell blue glow - from remote wiki yellow glow - saved in local storage
11:30:00
11:30:00 From Jeff Miller color glows! http://code.fed.wiki/view/how-wiki-colors-move
11:32:35
11:32:35 From Jeff Miller Ward demonstrates "Make Roster" http://ward.dojo.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/make-roster/view/how-to-wiki "fed.wiki.org ward.dojo.fed.wiki"
11:36:09
11:36:09 From Jeff Miller "Make Roster" / "Roster of Neighbors" https://github.com/WardCunningham/assets/tree/master/pages/frame-script-outlines
11:37:53 From Paul Rodwell the make roster script hasn’t made it into git yet
11:38:01 From Jeff Miller http://code.fed.wiki/view/frame-script-outlines
11:40:08 From Jeff Miller Ward and others discuss programming style (simple small minimal scripts); engineering, underbuilding and overbuilding. Henry Ford in the junkyard: "any part that never breaks, you can relax the spec; any part that frequently breaks, you can tighten the spec."
11:41:25 From Jeff Miller "only an engineer can build a bridge that barely stands" / about not overbuilding Paul relates a story about a wooden bridge in Lithuania painted to resemble metal, to give more confidence to people expecting that bridges are built of metal.
11:42:55 From Jeff Miller drag and drop handler: http://ward.dojo.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/frame-script-outlines
11:44:05 From Jeff Miller trying to drop the journal of Welcome Visitors
11:44:09 From Paul Rodwell https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q88671704#/media/File:2020,_tiltas._K%C4%97dainiai.JPG
11:46:55
11:46:55 From Paul Rodwell a page about that bridge - https://www.miesarch.com/work/4717
11:47:02 From Jeff Miller http://code.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/frame-script-outlines
11:49:20 From Jeff Miller took a long time for me to remember that I should drag the FLAG of the page and not the page itself (to get Frame Script Outlines from code.fed.wiki to my dojo site)
11:53:18
11:53:18 From Jeff Miller I finally got something from the drop handler!
11:53:54 From Robert Best Drop wiki JSON , could you tell it's wiki? JSON editor to add tags and save.
11:53:59 From Jeff Miller (I struggled with the wiki client wanting to do other things, but finally dragged a flag over from Familiar Workflows) clipboard and drag-and-drop are pretty deep magic, in a messy way
11:56:51
11:56:51 From Jeff Miller Ward observes that Moldable Development shows the details and the seams, inviting participants to build their own tools from the set. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth "Whitworth spanners"
11:58:07 From Jeff Miller 1841 standard for screw threads
11:58:35 From Paul Rodwell and there are a few - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Motorcycle_manufacturers_of_the_United_Kingdom
11:58:36 From Brian certain about of resiliancy in the medium.
11:59:10 From Eric Dobbs Looks like the first wiki scripting features landed in October 2020. The following February I added some examples of the frame integrations. https://github.com/fedwiki/wiki-plugin-frame/commit/ad85eb0cd5633200df838420b37237900c3af0da I mean…scripting in the frame plugin
12:00:11 From Brian There is feedback that makes it "happy" or resolves tension/stress.
12:00:36 From Jeff Miller comparison of materials such as metals, living tissue, code in a running context.
12:00:52 From Brian Let chatGPT write wiki pages...
12:01:03 From Jeff Miller How do we make code as the agent of prompting and wanting more?
12:01:36 From Marc Pierson I âm late to another call.
12:01:47 From Brian bye.
12:04:25
12:04:25 From Jeff Miller Croquet "virtual art gallery" (compare with) Marc's cave drawings and campfire talks
12:05:45 From Brian I hope that something better than Mural can evolve over time....
12:06:39 From Jeff Miller Paul suggests "The Future of Text" as a proper point of interest for the cave drawing metaphor. For example, the LIDAR scan of one participant's desk as a 3D model
12:06:48 From Pete FYI BAT Cave VR environment: https://www.evl.uic.edu/research/1769
12:09:13 From Brian Humans are very dirty/messy automata...
12:09:34 From Jeff Miller if you can't touch it how do you know how it will behave?
12:10:02 From Paul Rodwell https://mymodernmet.com/lascaux-cave-paintings-virtual-tour/
12:10:05 From Jeff Miller I found that out in a cave fortunately a popular cave so we followed other people with flashlights petroglyphs - cave paintings without the cave
12:12:40
12:12:40 From Jeff Miller The Future of Text https://thefutureoftext.org/
12:15:25
12:15:25 From Jeff Miller https://thefutureoftext.org/lab/ "the future of work with text in Extended Reality (VR/AR/XR)"
12:15:31 From Santhosh R Thanks @Ward Cunningham & others, I’m also signing out, got something to take care tomorrow morning
12:18:10
12:18:10 From Jeff Miller https://futuretextlab.info/