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09:42:30
09:42:30 From Jeff Miller Marc discusses systems studies work projects at the community level, showing diagrams (SoFi and others), mentioning a project about a school in Spain, the Banana Mountain Democratic School; also Chris's work in Superior, Arizona. These mutually focused communities are starting a discussion about their learnings and experiences.
09:44:13 From Jeff Miller Marc describes the challenge of finding an audience for your understandings -- Kerry's work looking at the British school system.
09:45:09 From jan d Becker, Howard S. 1972. “A School Is a Lousy Place To Learn Anything In.” American Behavioral Scientist 16 (1): 85–105. https://doi.org/10.1177/000276427201600109.
09:46:39 From Jeff Miller Eric recalls Alan Kay's reflections on education and his disappointments -- the wicked problems of education as an institution wrapped up in problems in adult political struggles.
09:47:41 From jan d kids/bullying/lor of the flies: https://davidgraeber.org/articles/the-bullys-pulpit-on-the-elementary-structure-of-domination/
09:48:00 From Jeff Miller (the counter-argument to Alan Kay's, recalled by Eric: Lord of the Flies - children in that story not being able to survive peacefully together when stranded)
09:50:17 From Jeff Miller :) A good place to ask about the history of agile methods, here.
09:51:38 From Jeff Miller (Jan's re-introduction as a Wikipedia UX developer, now in a doctoral degree program)
09:53:10 From Jeff Miller https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikidata
09:54:25 From Jeff Miller recent press release, Wikifunctions: https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2023/12/05/introducing-wikifunctions-first-wikimedia-project-to-launch-in-a-decade-creates-new-forms-of-knowledge/ https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/Wikifunctions:Main_Page including a 7-minute video
09:57:25
09:57:25 From Pete gamification to encourage engagement
09:57:37 From Marc Pierson How much is being a wikipedia editor like being an investigative journalist? If at all.
09:57:41 From Jeff Miller Jan observes: some barriers to entry are removed by design, others are still inherent (they have to be written in an executable programming language supported by the project; Javascript and Python) from Wikifunctions:How_to_create_implementations : If you already have Tests (and it’s a good habit to create the tests first), click on the circular arrow in the Test cases and see if your implementation passes the tests.
09:58:40 From Brian There is some recipe from successful community efforts that involve a fair bit of alignment and specific focuses with a few key leaders/structures. The leaders seem to do minor steering to stay aligned and provide "insulation" between members to keep tensions from becoming large enough to cause a rift. Some form of that forms the "us" group and the members that don't fit in, become the defactor "them" group...if the "us" group has enough critical mass, then it seems like there is success...
10:00:33 From Brian Being meticulous with ADTs, e.g. sum and product types, is almost always beneficial in long run.
10:00:47 From Pete To maintain vision, do we require BDFL (benevalent dictator for life) as a leader to provide lightning-rod for concensus / dissent? Lots of successful projects have that (whether explicit or hiding in the background).
10:01:46 From Brian I'm not sure if the groups with BDFLs would be called successful in the long term. Definately have kept groups together through key development stages though.
10:01:52 From Pete leader / visionary vs manager / facilitator roles
10:02:10 From Brian Python has gone through interesting growth and governence changes.
10:02:21 From Jeff Miller Jan discusses an interesting design conflict around exposing one of the internal design details -- the abstract identifiers used in the machinery to connect the details.
10:02:33 From jan d Ward: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q7637
10:02:46 From Jeff Miller Ward reflects on "How do we extend the lifecycle of software?"
10:04:19 From Jeff Miller Pair programming and coding -- "Let's say that after every hour or so of programming, that we add a few sentences to the wiki with things that we're thinking that aren't in the code. Related to this was a BFL number a Built for Life number which might connect a piece of code to that thought." "We can grant folks blocks of BFL numbers so they can also contribute to the same set of notes."
10:05:42 From Pete stop at "good enough for now"
10:05:44 From Brian I kind of wish there was a unique URL assigned to people at birth that could work with mail and package delivery etc and you could update as you move around over time.
10:06:12 From Jeff Miller (Jeff is reminded of a Recurse Center practice which matches very closely to that cadence of pair, pause, reflect)
10:06:44 From Brian I'm caught up on Brian M. podcast now. I've enjoyed his takes on topics.
10:06:59 From Jeff Miller I think it's helpful that we don't have a unique single URL because it's not auditable / editable.
10:07:17 From jan d https://www.fordes.de/posts/DocumentationPower.html
10:07:19 From Jeff Miller (I worry about governance around the single ID)
10:07:31 From Pete SSO via google id ? advertisers have an 'identity' for you based on cookies / profiling credit agencies do a lot of this too
10:08:40 From Jeff Miller yup and I get a lot of misdirected signals from my namesakes via failed email address bindings
10:08:59 From Pete In my current world, KYC (Know Your Customer) is an important driver for identifying who you really are (part of AML anti money-laundering laws )
10:09:34 From Jeff Miller Right. Docusign has a probabilistic identifier for "is this the Jeffrey Miller we're looking for?"
10:09:43 From Brian A sinlge place to update for paper bills is desirable to me. Not such a big issue any more as I've stopped moving around. I still have lots of digital bills that mostly go to a single email, but would be nice to factor that part out too, I think. That said, I get that everything can be exploited and abused and downsides might not be worth it (e.g. a digital reputation score).
10:09:49 From Jeff Miller part of a quiz-based back for signatures online "send THESE bills HERE, send THOSE bills THERE"
10:11:05 From Jeff Miller blanket season
10:11:21 From jan d looks great!
10:11:24 From Jeff Miller (Blanket Season in Seattle too) oh scrapbook based publishing cookbooks, many many versions
10:13:09 From Jeff Miller (Fannie Farmer Cookbook, 13 editions 1896-1990)
10:13:13 From Marc Pierson Jan, can you share some of your work with us? Links, documents, references?
10:13:25 From jan d sure! Sec…
10:13:26 From Jeff Miller ah an internationalized and localized cookbook? hmm
10:14:29 From Jeff Miller fewer aspics, more tabouli and bulgur recipes
10:14:38 From jan d Replying to "Jan, can you share s..." Probably best summary on my work https://up2date.uni-bremen.de/en/article/research-between-the-kitchen-and-the-computer
10:15:04 From Jeff Miller (or just a picture of the plaque: me)
10:15:04 From Pete Loss function (what to forget) is important to avoid getting lost in the weeds
10:15:32 From jan d Replying to "Jan, can you share s..." https://www.fordes.de/posts/rerereading_suchman_plansActions.html https://www.fordes.de/posts/InstructionsPower.html
10:15:33 From Jeff Miller right "the loss function of a learning process/system"
10:16:15 From Pete (interesting problem in AIML work - both from training and generating)
10:17:38 From Jeff Miller "Google Street View for ..." (parks and museums, some places)
10:19:37 From Jeff Miller A discussion of a scenario among Ward and others about "Let's say you take a picture of a view; let's say there's a plaque describing this place. If I don't take a picture of the plaque, do I want to recall that information later on, with the picture?" A discussion of getting lost in order to learn a landscape, learning the back roads to get a sense of where things were at.
10:20:55 From Jeff Miller (Jeff: or wandering on purpose to fill in places on the map)
10:21:15 From Pete Turn on "avoid highways" on route planner
10:21:48 From Jeff Miller Ward describes taking alternate routes, even with a navigation guide, where the guide would point the most direct way home when it was time, after wandering around the east side of Portland.
10:22:11 From Pete can be a problem when in the mountains (e.g. colorado - get stuck going through a pass or twisty-windy road)
10:22:39 From Jeff Miller "We thought that the Internet would be more a geography to wander, and that's largely untrue, except for places like Wikipedia, which is easy to wander."
10:24:32 From Eric Dobbs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessness
10:24:55 From jan d https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_world
10:24:56 From Brian Constraints can help creativity, though I doubt it's a requirement.
10:25:02 From Jeff Miller Jan observes that the original folks on the Internet, during the early Web, did have a group of people who already had a lot of common culture and reference points, which might have given a common an familiar feel. Jo Freeman's Tyranny of Structurelessness Early Women's Liberation movements in the 1960s-1970s had an ideal of a flat or structureless community -- but what that did was hide the implicit structure of insiders and outsiders.
10:26:03 From jan d https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
10:26:09 From Ward Cunningham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessness
10:26:17 From Jeff Miller Outsiders find it difficult to criticise the problems with the invisible structure.
10:27:29 From Jeff Miller (Brian Marick's discussion of the evolution of creative communities, summarizing works on the histories of art, poetry, and literary work).
10:28:04 From Brian Reminds me of, https://www.amazon.com/Hack-Your-Bureaucracy-Things-Matter/dp/0306827751, which is on my "to read" list...
10:29:56 From Pete https://gwern.net/doc/technology/2005-shirky-agroupisitsownworstenemy.pdf
10:30:40 From Jeff Miller TY!
10:31:59 From Jeff Miller Brian wonders: is there more intimacy in a group that has more in common? Maybe homogeneous groups at the level of about ten?
10:32:27 From Marc Pierson https://www.amazon.com/Always-Change-Winning-Team-Prerequisites/dp/095428299X Always change a winning team. Then there is the sociocracy thinking.
10:33:30 From Brian That's a great book, really enjoyed it, and recommend it.
10:34:35 From Jeff Miller (Open Spaces learnings about groups and understandings?)
10:36:18 From Brian https://weavers.org/about/ is another group that I saw referenced that seems to have similar community building concepts.
10:36:38 From Jeff Miller Discussion across the group here, about how you bring people together in a group for information and collaboration; what do people need to know; what things are easy, what things are harder.
10:38:05 From Jeff Miller Jan considers: "how to enable communication" is perhaps a smaller and more focused goal, preceding "how to be inclusive".
10:38:26 From Brian Also recognize the "impedence" aspect. People need to be prepared and in the right mindset, to have certain kinds of conversations. If they aren't there, then don't have the conversation, because it cannot be successful.
10:38:59 From Jeff Miller What are ways for designers and developers to work together? When an object, let's say the mockup of in interface, is shared by the developer and the designer - their relationship to the mockup is different in terms of what they're thinking.
10:39:02 From Marc Pierson Surprise and curiosity attract me and I am willing to pay for it—socially.
10:39:15 From Jeff Miller A "boundary object" in the classic sense; both sides can point to it but it means different things. Jan gives examples of a boundary object - maybe a standard, a specification, a mockup.
10:39:54 From Brian Boundary object is common state, where a context has a value function for that state, that is likely not the same value function across communities/contexts.
10:40:00 From jan d https://www.fordes.de/posts/collaboration_boundary_trading.html examples from the canonical paper: - Repositories (of objects classified in a standard way), - Ideal types (that represent something in a usefully limited way, like a map or and user interface wireframe), -Coincident boundaries (where the boundaries of a metaphorical container coincide for the different parties, but not necessarily what it contains, e.g. “the project”, or “the state of California”) - Standardized forms (often, a literal form-to-fill-out, or a template that different parties use. In IT, user stories are often created in this way)"
10:41:31 From Jeff Miller Internet protocol specifications as boundary objects subject to "bake-offs" -- can multiple implementations talk well enough.
10:41:31 From Brian https://diegopiovesan.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/livro_-_the_non-designers_desi.pdf
10:42:09 From Jeff Miller (I think my friend Megan was a Peachpit Press employee - she's doing a horticulture degree now)
10:42:24 From Brian Picking a good font is incredibly hard, if one digs into it...
10:43:25 From Jeff Miller "The Non-Designer's Design Book: Design and Typographic Principles for the Visual Novice", Robin Williams
10:47:42
10:47:42 From Brian Sounds like a bug reprot...
10:47:47 From jan d decorative images W3C: https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/decorative/
10:48:01 From Jeff Miller Harvard University Accessibility Guide https://accessibility.huit.harvard.edu/
10:48:38 From Brian I use Tusky as a client on my phone.
10:48:39 From Jeff Miller alt-text suggestions https://accessibility.huit.harvard.edu/describe-content-images (multiple points of tension on alt text)
10:50:36 From Jeff Miller closed-captioning for sound design is sometimes a surprise - lyrics of a song, title of a song, "threatening music" (oh?) Myst, Rand and Robyn Miller; atmospheric music as a clue to what was happenining.
10:51:32 From Brian Alternate input methods, can totally enrich the experience. For example, animating music... https://jbendeaton.com/blog/2010/tufte-on-music-animation
10:52:04 From Jeff Miller (The Roguelike Celebration had multiple talks on atmospheric sound and music and variations on melodies, pacing, and pitch) audio hints in video games partly accessibility for sight limitations, partly for everyone
10:53:42 From Jeff Miller Ward relates a story of a blind colleague and how to cross a parking lot with clues. "If the sun is hitting your face at a different angle, you've got yourself turned around."
10:56:27
10:56:27 From Jeff Miller Ward relates a story about his blind colleague and Smalltalk ; thinking back, pairing on navigating a Smalltalk screen together would have been an interesting experience, because of how the colleague worked with spatial organization, like a Braille printed page.
10:58:59
10:58:59 From Jeff Miller Ward describes a 15-second structured digital conversation protocol on radio. It's typically related to radio logging - people exchanging who they are and where they're calling from.
11:00:21 From Jeff Miller There's a map of conversations keyed to the senders of recent messages, like T32TT from Kiribati Atoll.
11:01:26 From Jeff Miller There's a list of conversations with symbols representing different data packet types. There are tight alphanumeric codes for geographic locations of the senders.
11:03:02 From Jeff Miller The grid coordinates of the senders were a little too square and non-informative; but the map anchors the sender location to the largest city within that grid square, like Muncie Indiana.
11:04:32 From Jeff Miller A point on the map shows up as soon as a transmission arrives; a point on the map disappears after ten minutes of inactivity.
11:08:40
11:08:40 From Jeff Miller "buried in the history of the wiki is access to the files I'm using" - having a ghost page with references to a wiki neighbor makes the files visible in the client "I'm three days into this one-day project"
11:09:12 From Brian 1 "engineering day" could be multiple real days.
11:09:18 From jan d Reacted to "1 "engineering day" ..." with 😃
11:09:47 From Pete mythical person-month
11:11:33 From Jeff Miller ham radio stamp collecting?
11:12:43 From Pete DXing
11:13:13 From Jeff Miller the DX century club (reminds me of the Sierra Peaks Section - peakbaggers - or birdwatchers - their life list)
11:14:05 From Pete Ham-radio "gamification" of DXing
11:14:26 From Jeff Miller "Islands on the Air" "I've activated Glacier National Park!" (what's the Niantic game before Pokemon Go, about geography?)
11:15:06 From Pete So, Heathkit / Radio Shack would try to capitalize on this to sell hardware and kits
11:15:10 From Jeff Miller "Summits on the Air" 100%, where's my Heathkit catalog?
11:16:47 From Jeff Miller Bicycle situated hill climbing radio contacts.
11:19:07 From Eric Dobbs SNAFUcatchers comes from the same general origin. https://snafucatchers.github.io/
11:24:33
11:24:33 From Jeff Miller cotton-pickin' = "a field hand"
11:27:49
11:27:49 From Jeff Miller (a discussion about ambiguously offensive or confusing language) (sparking from master vs. main branch in Git, etc.)
11:28:23 From Brian I was mis remembering... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_paper_bag_test
11:28:54 From Jeff Miller humor leaning on stereotypes and obscenity - even when it's a self commentary
11:30:23 From Jeff Miller Who deserves support and benefits? ("entitlements" and "privileges")
11:32:26 From Jeff Miller Game Theory of human interactions Nash equilibria as stuck dynamics
11:32:50 From Eric Dobbs Game Theory tools for learning: https://ncase.me/trust/ http://ncase.me/polygons/
11:33:01 From Jeff Miller Ward observes: game theory is uniquely precise about human interactions in a narrow sense. instructable games about segregation and trust
11:34:06 From Jeff Miller Polygons - how groups self-segregate
11:34:14 From Brian I've enjoyed Vi Hart's work for a long time. She does the "Pi" day videos.
11:35:23 From Jeff Miller (if you're more comfortable with like-minded folks, even a small amount, that will drive segregation - the Polygons model)
11:36:38 From Brian Game theory might be a probablistic CLD.
11:36:43 From Jeff Miller "stratification" - segregation by voluntary choice, not by law
11:36:43 From Marc Pierson https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/relocalize-housing
11:39:57
11:39:57 From Jeff Miller "nothing about us without us" is the slogan I've heard about participation and governance
11:40:09 From jan d Reacted to ""nothing about us wi..." with 👍🏻
11:40:10 From Marc Pierson I now think that laws can be present as patterns.
11:43:09
11:43:09 From Brian Something gave him some sense of security to be able to do that.
11:44:33 From Jeff Miller Relocalize Housing - a person who moved into a neighborhood and advocated for his disadvantaged neighborhood against redlining. Robert Sadler's story.
11:44:37 From Brian One of the problems with Prisoner's dilema is one off vs living with your neghbors and playing the same game multiple times (or every day) So interesting math thought experiment, not useful for much else.
11:44:58 From Marc Pierson https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/elinor-ostrom
11:45:39 From Brian Not stupid, just didn't have all the context necessary to hear the next thing.
11:46:27 From Jeff Miller Human nature as one where we can easily develop cooperation, but the public discourse suggests that "human nature" is a failure point related to greed and impatience. A discussion of Ostrom's work about the right granuarity of commons groups.
11:46:35 From Brian I think the same for businesses...
11:47:25 From Jeff Miller Local diversity in cooperating groups supports the ability to move out of a system. (a reflection on Ostrom)
11:47:26 From Brian Businesses up to a few hundred employees seem to work pretty well. Beyond that, they become something different that I don't think is as good for society.
11:47:34 From Pete You can say anything you like, but who is listening?
11:47:48 From Jeff Miller "a FedWiki roster is an embodiment of a neighborhood declaration" "referring to a roster with a single line or single page heading" (Marc asks about more easily working with repeated roster lists)
11:49:17 From Jeff Miller "Recent changes within the roster" - it's about how to use the Activity Plugin to focus on changes within a list of sites. Appreciation from Jeff because I'm very late to understand what usage patterns for the Roster plugin are.
11:50:21 From Jeff Miller Eric provides an example http://wander.dbbs.co/view/eric-dobbs Look at the panel "My Other Wikis"
11:51:27 From Jeff Miller Compare http://wiki.dbbs.com/eric-dobbs http://wander.dbbs.co/view/eric-dobbs/wiki.dbbs.co/eric-dobbs "ROSTER wiki.dbbs.co/eric-dobbs" -> it's a transclusion into wander.dbbs.co from wiki.dbbs.co
11:53:52 From Jeff Miller "The site and the slug of that page is enough to make a link to a page that contains a roster, to include it by reference into another page's Roster item"
11:54:01 From jan d need to go -- see you next Sunday if my usual schedule works out
11:54:12 From Jeff Miller bye Jan!
11:54:16 From jan d Reacted to "bye Jan!" with 👋🏻
11:54:27 From Pete Reacted to "bye Jan!" with 👋🏻
11:55:21 From Brian Might be interesting to look at the neighborhoods from a small world network perspective.
11:55:30 From Jeff Miller Eric reflects: if you imagine a classroom where the teacher is maintaining a roster of wiki sites, then all participating students or subscribers can share that same roster by reference.
11:55:44 From Brian "freedom to forjk"
11:57:23 From Jeff Miller Ward mentions Mike Hales' writing project as a community effort. "I'll need six sites and a couple of more for organizing the project ..." the conversation for the project is partitioned among 12-13 sites; so how do we talk about them collectively.
11:58:36 From Jeff Miller How do we categorize the pages (for Mike Hales' project). "category: a_category" as the first paragraph of the page <- shows up in the site map
12:01:46
12:01:46 From Jeff Miller an item for discussion next week, synoptic roll-ups of wiki pages for Mike Hales' project
12:01:47 From Marc Pierson http://marc.tries.fed.wiki/view/kerry--marc-collaboration http://marc.tries.fed.wiki/view/kerry--marc-collaboration/view/notes-between-kerry--marc
12:02:31 From Eric Dobbs Jeff, here’s another example of Roster Plugin & Activity Plugin working together http://eric.dojo.fed.wiki/ward--thompson-dialog.html
12:03:05 From Jeff Miller Thanks for all the activity plugin and roster plugin examples!
12:07:40
12:07:40 From Jeff Miller aha! a roster followed by an activity plugin referring to the roster on this same page "title": "Kerry & Marc Collaboration", "story": [ { "type": "roster", "id": "40e22acb963dcd77", "text": "Kerry & Marc Collaboration\nmarc.tries.fed.wiki\nkerry.tries.fed.wiki\n\n" }, { "type": "activity", "id": "c43a88598cb67997", "text": "ROSTER Kerry & Marc Collaboration\nTWINS 2\nCONVERSATION" } ],
12:08:17 From Marc Pierson https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/about-banana-mountain
12:09:31 From Jeff Miller A discussion between Marc and Ward of leaflet map items and the BOUNDARY directives; add the BOUNDARIES first, they limit the map pane; add them last, they may expand the map pane. Usually diagonally opposite corners.
12:10:55 From Jeff Miller BOUNDARY 32.33 -118.17 BOUNDARY 30.02 -116.10
12:11:59 From Jeff Miller usage of Google Maps API as an underlayer for statistics like "Chicago Crime" map a burst of energy into making the Maps API work but later withdrawn or abandoned because there was no model for handing it over "Killed By Google"
12:19:53
12:19:53 From Jeff Miller oops that was a chunk of the Pacific Ocean
12:21:37 From Brian Looks like I need to go tree shopping soon....Thanks everyone.
12:22:11 From Jeff Miller "aquifer recharge" - natural infrastructure video
12:22:19 From Pete Natural Infrastructure (rocks in Pen Creek): http://found.ward.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/natural-infrastructure
12:22:29 From Ward Cunningham http://found.ward.fed.wiki/natural-infrastructure.html http://found.ward.fed.wiki/natural-infrastructure.html https://roamingupward.net/
12:23:59 From Jeff Miller Roaming Upward - a school from Paul Krafel