Typescript 2023-11-19

09:16:22

09:16:22 From Jeff Miller Diwali: fireworks keeping the Indian members of Recurse Center awake at night 'twas ever thus commercialization of celebrations penny for the Guy? I flew my flag for Veterans Day!

09:17:48 From Jeff Miller In Bellingham, I saw a number of folks wearing poppies for Remembrance Day I managed to frighten our child by taking him to fireworks night when a babe in arms. (fireworks night at the baseball game in Oakland CA)

09:19:18 From Jeff Miller ChatGPT - pretty good for doing boilerplate code

09:22:25

09:22:25 From Brian The Google results have degraded pretty hard over the last couple of years...Seems to be much more AD weighted...

09:24:01 From Brian If a critical mass of society can get to the point that they and their future are "safe", then they can spend their time in community building, and then we can have nice, community built things that are sustained... I'm not sure how to get to the first part though.

09:24:31 From Jeff Miller yeah the last couple of years are ?? ??

09:25:58 From Brian "Intelligence" is hard to define.

09:27:29 From Paul Rodwell ChatGPT Created a Fake Dataset With Skewed Results (MedPage Today) - https://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/33/94#subj6 - but linked article is behind MedPage Today paywall.

09:29:52 From Jeff Miller On the Rhone!

09:31:53 From Jeff Miller (we were having a chat about AI and LLMs and the opportunity landscape being illegible to Jeff) it's a fashion and a fad

09:32:22 From Brian Sort of the "if you sit down at a table and can't identify the sucker, you are the sucker..."

09:33:27 From Jeff Miller yeah though it kind of looks like everyone is the sucker so I'm scratching my head.

09:34:01 From Brian telegraph, telephone, television are have many of the same "meta" conversations when they were emgerging.

09:34:26 From Paul Rodwell https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning_models

09:34:28 From Jeff Miller Eric recalls a PyCon presentation of human languages, and the point at which human languages included whitespace; whitespace changed reading. Ancient scrolls had ambiguous word boundaries. Punctuation followed. Innovations in reading rather than writing, per se; hints to the reader.

09:35:28 From Marc Pierson e. e. cummings tried to go backward in time

09:36:14 From Jeff Miller Ward points out that the same is true of mathematical proofs, that the way they were presented was in-person; read a Euclidean proof as a script for a performance, and it makes more sense; allowing for the modern recasting of it.

09:36:36 From Brian https://intellectualmathematics.com/opinionated-history-of-mathematics/

09:36:36 From Jeff Miller "The Opinionated History of Mathematics" per Ward.

09:36:48 From Pete hypothesis: "reading" may be migrating towards pulling together information chunks (e.g. wiki pages) into narrative dynamically rather than via authored static flow of text / paragraphs

09:37:18 From Jeff Miller Pete: interesting! (and super on topic for FedWiki)

09:37:36 From Pete or "art" as playing with generative tools instead of being given a fixed 'video game' board to play on

09:37:51 From Paul Rodwell https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/17/openais_board_of_directors_fire/

09:37:52 From Jeff Miller <3

09:38:15 From Brian As far as I can tell, chatGPT is basically a slightly more sophisticated version of word2vec. So the important "secret" was that scaling it resulted in something useful... Ebikes and such.

09:38:45 From Jeff Miller "art as playing with generative tools" which shows up in a little aside in Karl Schroeder's Lady of Mazes.

09:39:22 From Pete Generative AIML should not be as interesting / useful as it is ... and the fact that we can find it interesting / useful the most interesting thing

09:40:24 From Jeff Miller (the aside was also a reference to "the wallpaper world" of a large population, such that you have doubles of yourself, doing similar things at the same time as you in any given moment -- like playing with generative art tools) dada is not dead! watch your overcoat! (generative wordplay at scale)

09:41:41 From Jeff Miller Ward is on a boat! On the Rhone!

09:41:53 From Paul Rodwell https://www.french-waterways.com/practicalities/cruising-conditions/

09:43:04 From Jeff Miller flocking behavior of neighbors

09:43:10 From Brian correlated stresses.

09:43:19 From Pete overload the tower

09:43:24 From Brian Good so far today.

09:43:47 From Jeff Miller super impressed by the "internet at the sports stadium" story

09:47:40

09:47:40 From Jeff Miller CoffeeScript innovations brought to Javascript

09:47:51 From Paul Rodwell https://coffeescript.org/ was nice, but now best avoided for anything new.

09:47:56 From Jeff Miller destructuring assignments, and arrow functions

09:48:39 From Brian Funny that I don't associate those concepts with Python at all...lol.

09:48:45 From Jeff Miller PaperJS: embeds a Javascript parser, which doesn't know about the modern Javascript syntax!

09:48:55 From Marc Pierson Anyone want to talk about Nix?

09:49:04 From Jeff Miller also list comprehensions in Pythonic sense

09:49:22 From Brian Nix as a package manager or something else?

09:49:34 From Eric Dobbs http://local-farm.wiki.dbbs.co/make-plugin-script.html http://local-farm.wiki.dbbs.co/make-a-new-plugin.html

09:49:57 From Jeff Miller RatFor as a front end in the same sense as CoffeeScript as a front end.

09:50:28 From Brian When did RatFor enter the converstation? lol.

09:50:31 From Marc Pierson I watched a young man show FedWiki and Nix. Claims “one click” install of FedWiki.

09:50:54 From Jeff Miller Nix is good for bundling matched dependencies. I do a lot of pairing with a Nix/Elixir fan.

09:53:25

09:53:25 From Brian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_(package_manager)

09:54:50 From Marc Pierson Jeff you may not be aware that you are talking over everyone. :>)

09:55:12 From Jeff Miller Thank you. That was me noticing and trying to prompt Viki

09:55:30 From Marc Pierson You are welcome. Return the favor in the future. :>)

09:55:34 From Jeff Miller since that's what I thought we were doing! and we've rabbit-holed on Nix

09:56:55 From Jeff Miller Are we going down a rabbit hole on Nix?

09:58:08 From Brian helm

09:59:09 From Jeff Miller Eric observes that Chef, Ansible, etc., the DevOps deployment recipes -- often are overconfident in how to provide recipes for common deployment patterns.

10:01:00 From Jeff Miller Do you prefer Go? NginX? Apache httpd? There's a mess of deployment recipes, and at a large enough company, you end up with so much variety that's difficult to management -- the return of DLL hell for dependencies, whenever we have dependencies. (Eric's observation) "The one-click install that Marc witnessed for FedWiki with Nix is a thing which works if everyone agrees to use Nix." - Eric

10:02:02 From Jeff Miller xkcd: Standards Pete says: "If you buy into the ecosystem, you use the standard tools for that ecosystem -- pip3 for Python is the front end, however it works behind the scenes."

10:04:06 From Jeff Miller "The package manager, more than the Python, is the important thing; the Python glues together the native C libraries managed by the package manager." - Pete Eric relates a story, "I know that there are Node packages which are installing Python..."

10:05:25 From Brian M4 is pretty amazing, albeit a bit awkward to use, especially infrequently.

10:05:49 From Jeff Miller ...related to finding a vulnerable package, so it was important. We've done "autotools" again! (perl and m4 to create platform-specific Makefiles and m4 macros to build your code). WSL = Windows Subsystem for Linux.

10:06:56 From Paul Rodwell or a turkey voting for Christmas

10:06:58 From Jeff Miller the "killer app" vote for Nix? (Marc is impressed) the nightmares of large piles of money "better the devil you know" versus "better to outsource the mess" ?

10:09:38

10:09:38 From Jeff Miller to Brian's point, the centralized management of the common parts of the deployment were a strong theme for the Developer Efficiency Engineering Summit.

10:11:13 From Jeff Miller "the paved path for 80% of teams and work, custom workflow for 20%" - DPE. Developer Productivity Engineering Summit. (corrected)

10:11:19 From Eric Dobbs http://plugins.fed.wiki.org/make-plugin-script.html

10:11:53 From Jeff Miller I think I have one that is an early start on that path. (includes a server-site plugin if you need it, which you might or might not) *server-SIDE plugin

10:15:02

10:15:02 From Jeff Miller I have an example wiki client plugin which is about ten minutes past the example.

10:17:08 From Jeff Miller yes, the Image plugin needs a server-side code block to handle the shared image folder the plugin code is blessed because it comes from the wiki server and passes the CORS tests, it can operate on the lineup (compared to the Frame plugin)

10:18:11 From yala hi everyone!
this is my first dojo.
happy to return to this community from time to time.

10:18:28 From Jeff Miller Hi Yala, we are working with Viki on a wiki plugin.

10:19:08 From Brian That sounds more client oriented than server oriented. Unless the check happens when the page is updated on the server.

10:19:32 From Jeff Miller yes

10:19:33 From yala Actually I have to file in a, sic, job application.
See you around!
I think I was just so excited that I could login to the federated.wiki farm again, that this coincided with the dojo. Have a great Sunday everyone!

10:19:43 From Jeff Miller See you!

10:20:10 From Robert Best Ghost page could look left and generate this with a wiki app in an asset in a frame?

10:20:24 From Jeff Miller Eric suggests a custom editor rather than a plugin per se, to keep a word count. (Viki mentioned a collective word count across paragraphs and items - ?)

10:22:50 From Jeff Miller Use the Lineup Graph plugin as a pattern to inspect the lineup for a word count or a word count per page seems do-able.

10:22:58 From Brian Otherwise, you need to hook an action to a keypress event or something...

10:23:42 From Eric Dobbs This is the plugin I was working on when we created the ability for custom editors. https://github.com/dobbs/wiki-plugin-slackmatic/blob/master/client/client.js

10:24:09 From Jeff Miller Robert B: yes, I could imagine the ghost-page generation as a wiki haiku check or a lineup word count check.

10:25:40 From Marc Pierson https://ulysses.app/ Not a plugging but a very cool writing tool. I use is and then move content into FedWiki, when I care about my writing.

10:25:45 From Robert Best Wonder if it could stay dynamic on word count even in the textarea that's currently being edited... Down to the keypress as Brian mentioned.

10:26:23 From Marc Pierson https://ulysses.app/

10:28:00 From Jeff Miller The "About" page for a plugin often embeds an example of the plugin for you to play with.

10:29:42 From Jeff Miller "empty", "editing", "saved" are the states in the machine (or "active", Pete points out)

10:29:55 From Paul Rodwell I tend to use https://www.augmentedtext.info/author , but it’s a macOS only app

10:31:54 From Eric Dobbs https://github.com/fedwiki/wiki-client/blob/master/lib/editor.coffee

10:32:02 From Jeff Miller Viki points out the Morse Code editor (in wiki) as an example of a closely interactive editor with tight feedback.

10:33:47 From Eric Dobbs https://github.com/WardCunningham/wiki-plugin-morseteacher

10:37:55

10:37:55 From Paul Rodwell local install from dev. directory npm install $(npm pack path-to-plugin-dev-folder -1)

10:44:49

10:44:49 From Jeff Miller event listeners in a thickly listened-to client environment importing pages from a site map to another wiki?

10:46:33 From Jeff Miller morse-teacher ported from one platform to another reminds me of Kent Beck's trick of reimplementing a unit test framework on every new language environment he learns

10:48:52 From Jeff Miller Eric demonstrates the JSON view of a wiki page, in the context of Viki's Q and A; also the magic server path endpoints for export "Why do I have two wiki indicators in the bottom frame? Looks like I need to flush the cache."

10:50:41 From Jeff Miller (Ward and I dealt with the "disable cache" setting during plugin development - browsers tend to eagerly cache script assets even when you know that you're changing and updating the scripts)

10:52:05 From Brian With the inspector open, right clicking on refresh button give options for clearing cache at a couple levels.

11:02:31

11:02:31 From Jeff Miller in Zoom chat, an example of using the hard reload from Brian's example.

11:03:34 From Jeff Miller "Do you lose the attribution when you update a site in this way?" / "Yes, it's fine for migrating an entire wiki, but the new site won't have any of the history of how it was forked, where the content came from." So that an import of a single page from a site, outside the direct wiki client forking mechanism, loses the hooks to the Federation.

11:04:44 From viki Reacted to "https://ulysses.ap..." with ❤️

11:05:05 From Jeff Miller Paul points out that the wiki server is a simple file server, mostly, and does not attempt to do redirection to new contexts or new names.

11:05:14 From Brian Excactly. I'd like to have reliable page renames too...

11:05:56 From Jeff Miller And that it could be useful to mark some servers in the history as "no longer in my neighborhood" to avoid attempting to fetch pages.

11:08:13 From Jeff Miller Context for this discussion is a description of the way that Eric's statically hosted FedWiki handles missing pages by creative use of the 404 missing-page redirection behavior; that it can produce unexpected results in some edge cases. Eric describes "fundamental confusion" on first inspecting the client storage, and then "regular confusion" when a closer inspection of the browser local storage showed two different origins for the same-named DB content related to different domains of static wikis. Paul reflects on wiki forwarding addresses.

11:09:38 From Jeff Miller (a discussion of wiki forwarding mechanisms and redirection) (interacting with the client-side federatino hooks) federation hooks

11:13:26

11:13:26 From Jeff Miller Marc observes that the federation inconsistencies and awkwardnesses are like a broken graph of a system. Is there a way to show the broken and live links? Brian points out that Ward's federation scan has the data which broadly describes the health of the federation.

11:14:07 From Paul Rodwell http://paul90.github.io/wiki-narrative-chart/#victoria-campbell@viki.wiki@david.ward.dojo.fed.wiki@wiki.ralfbarkow.ch@found.ward.bay.wiki.org

11:14:09 From Jeff Miller Eric points out that Federation Search is a place where that information is exposed. how the search works
how the backing files are represented
how the data may be available and graphable "It gets very messy very quickly" - Paul.

11:19:43

11:19:43 From Jeff Miller (Viki and Paul discuss the Radar plugins and their history as early work of Ward at Nike; that they're interesting as examples of working with data, but they presume a lot of specifics about the format being a match for the Nike data)

11:28:15

11:28:15 From Jeff Miller Be the change you want to see?

11:30:48

11:30:48 From Brian https://podcast.oddly-influenced.dev/

11:32:16 From Brian https://social.oddly-influenced.dev/@marick is his Mastodon name

11:33:48 From Jeff Miller build up a world of networks of pattern thinking around communities, to solve problems at the right level (Marc's optimistic view) "Steal this pattern!" - a la Abbie Hoffman

11:35:14 From Marc Pierson I intend to document ANTI patterns as well as prosocial patterns.

11:36:09 From Jeff Miller (like Rules for Radicals by Saul Alinsky being plundered for activist patterns by right-wing populist activists)

11:36:17 From Brian Replying to "I intend to document..." +1

11:36:34 From Jeff Miller You're interested in that thing? Go look! "City kids have no common sense!"

11:37:44 From Jeff Miller (deep observational skill X not a lot of sense of other human contexts)

11:38:39 From Paul Rodwell Interview with Ken Burns - https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2023/oct/17/ken-burns-interview-american-buffalo-documentary-pbs?ref=upstract.com

11:39:10 From Jeff Miller Eric Dobbs refers to Ken Burns' documentary on The American Buffalo.

11:40:51 From Jeff Miller It's a detailed, de-romanticized treatment of the industrial flow of buffalo harvest, feeding the Industrial Revolution at the same time as the buffalo as a tribal resource was run down and eliminated.

11:41:01 From Brian https://www.amazon.com/Ecology-Law-Toward-System-Community/dp/1626562067

11:41:11 From Jeff Miller Fritjof Capra, Ecology of Law. "Buffalo hide as a commodity used for the mechanical belts to transmit industrial power in manufacturing installations."

11:43:18 From Jeff Miller (My family tree has some similar stories in it, where there might have been a point where slaves were sold to finance westward migration)

11:50:25

11:50:25 From Jeff Miller As soon as you start paying attention to a problem, there's a lot of nuance and complexity that you don't see at first glance.

How much of this history should we carry forward?

How much personal liberty do folks have in their survival choices, in the past contexts. "Cloud Atlas" is an optimistic take on this. Brian says: "in thirty to ninety days, we assimilate to the survival patterns of their environment."

11:51:15 From Eric Dobbs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

11:52:16 From Jeff Miller and the electrical stimulation punishment experiment mansplaining as a service the vulnerability of our sense-making mechanisms to confidence artists, cult indoctrination, or narcissistic visions

11:53:39 From Jeff Miller (Eric's observation) "We've automated bullshitting." 

"And worse, the next generation of language models is feeding on the current generation's output.":

11:54:46 From Robert Best Rushkoff makes the point that since they're learning from us... if we want these ai/models to be better, then we need to be better humans to lead by example :P

11:55:49 From Jeff Miller That's a hard thing to hear, and probably a true thing.

11:57:34 From Jeff Miller "a competent practicioner" versus "a plausible practicioner" - Marc "an ER nurse or an ER doctor are among the best."

11:59:04 From Jeff Miller (Jeff had an experience with a persistent misdiagnosis; at the ER, the issue was obvious) "Don't ask your barber if you need a haircut." "Don't go to a cardiologist as the first resort for chest pain."

12:02:38

12:02:38 From Brian There have been several movies covering the last decade of oxy....maybe there will be more awareness...

12:02:42 From Jeff Miller These days, you are your own case manager, and you have a better position to be an expert on your own conditions. But it's a burden to do this. the finance model of medicine generates activity that shouldn't be done, for reasons related to the finance model

12:04:11 From Brian Decoupling employer provided insurance seems like a good place to start fixing things...

12:04:51 From Jeff Miller Socialism! :)

12:04:57 From Brian Almost all of capitolism numbers are made up.

12:05:16 From Jeff Miller The US has done a crummy version of socialism for corporate employees. With high overhead. because privatization is Good, it will create efficiencies to drive the cost down... ... enabling extraction of profit upward.

12:06:23 From Brian If the playing field stays "fair", then it has a chance to work...but not sure there has ever been a fair playing field.

12:06:30 From Jeff Miller I find it difficult to understand why we can't be more clear about this.

12:07:32 From Jeff Miller (hospitals used to over-purchase CAT scanners, etc.) (too much capital investment)

12:08:17 From Brian [OT] I killed my AWS instance to upgrade to an IPv6 only instance....turns out that was nontrivial and it's going to take me a while to get my site back up.

12:09:55 From Jeff Miller "No species can survive the swings of fashion." - from Ken Burns' documentary. fashion -> high dollar market -> humans seeking to serve the market

12:11:07 From Brian There might be other "least bad" alternatives that might be a bit better. "Optimal" is sort of a red herring...

12:11:25 From Jeff Miller Eric reflects on Chris's work in Superior as a new way of thinking about sustainable exchange.

12:15:43

12:15:43 From Jeff Miller Brian reflects on places which focused on specialization doing worse than places which trained everyone to get a sense of the whole process - an example from tailor apprenticeship, versus butcher workshops. - a podcast example about resilient trades? Brian considers - let's consider a day harvesting corn, working from job to job, not riding the combine harvester for twenty hours.

12:17:15 From Jeff Miller Marc reports on Chris's current work - "Leo's is booked for weeks ahead."