Text extraction. See Typescript Archive, Typescript Transcripts.
09:47:04
09:47:04 From Pete I need to disappear at 1300ET - I love hearing everyone's story, I'm glad we can make time here every week to talk. Always seem to find out new things, which to an 'old' like me is always a good thing.
09:47:19 From Jeff Miller a day after my immunization tired but okay
09:48:29 From Pete Most of the vaccines leave me tired, but my wife usually gets full-on symptoms.
09:48:56 From Jeff Miller :( Some people take it harder than others. This one was moderate.
09:50:30 From Jeff Miller Such a good occasion to have David Bovill and creative partners joining from Wales.
09:51:32 From Jeff Miller Marc reflects on a pattern language for interpersonal relationships, and ways that people can get trapped in cycles and roles, or escape from those.
09:52:12 From Eric Dobbs Christopher Casillas https://chris.relocalizecreativity.net/christopher-casillas-in-his-own-words.html
09:52:41 From Jeff Miller Superior, Arizona; a copper-mining town in central Arizona.
09:53:55 From Jeff Miller oh, Citrix! earlier screen-share / Windows remote control / remote-access platform
09:54:11 From Shikhar Agarwal Thanks for the notes Jeff!
09:55:01 From Pete FYI for the new foiks, Jeff is Really Good at annotating/scribing and sharing his notes here)
09:56:09 From Shikhar Agarwal im going to get my laptop charger, apologies
09:56:12 From Jeff Miller Thank you for the appreciation. Taking notes helps me make sense of a conversation which is often wide-ranging. Chris in his own words has had quite a trip! "a missionary in his own home town, adorning rather than converting"
09:59:18
09:59:18 From Jeff Miller (i can't help but think about "emulate Dazhai!" with regard to communities whose practices are a model for others -- the Chinese Communist Party has done a lot of model community promotion - side note: https://chineseposters.net/themes/dazhai a terraced rural landscape). Eric demonstrates a way of looking at fedwiki and wiki farms, of creating a small subsite for authoring a particular hypermedia notebook.
10:00:40 From Jeff Miller "How Thermostats Work", http://therm.ward.bay.wiki.org "thermostats have some significant complexity, including analog computer modeling, anticipation and delay, hysteresis"
10:01:43 From Jeff Miller Mercury in a thermostat, a glass tube with two contacts, which tilts to close or open a circuit. The heavy mercury will tend to hold the switch in one state or the other, once it spills to the other condition; this reduces jittering of the switch state.
10:02:47 From Jeff Miller Cybernetics, classically, has interest in timing loops. Example from Ward's thermostat is the "heat anticipator", a model for the house as it warms up, before that heat actually is seen by the thermometer.
10:05:09 From Jeff Miller The heat anticipator is tuned according to the house, running a little extra current through the thermometer's bimetallic strip to anticipate the warmth - it helps dampen oscillations by turning the heat off a little early, before a wave of heat hits the thermostat's temperature sensor. "you try running a thermostat like that!" cybernetic jitter and oversteering
10:06:26 From Marc Pierson I am just imagining how pleased your high school teachers would be to hear you now!!!
10:06:55 From Jeff Miller http://therm.ward.bay.wiki.org/view/welcome-visitors/view/how-thermostats-work
10:07:11 From Paul Rodwell sadly most modern thermostats don’t have a heat anticipator, or have a non-adjustable one hardcoded in firmware.
10:07:23 From Jeff Miller click "wiki" to activate the wiki editor, double-click the diagram to see how Ward put it together.
10:08:58 From Jeff Miller Eric says, related to the demo: "domain name certificates are painful to administer, despite being thought as a solved problem" (especially since the advent of Let's Encrypt - easy to get a cert, but you still have to manage it). Eric considers the case where a wiki might look like domain-name/~author/wiki-site-name/
10:11:46
10:11:46 From Paul Rodwell sadly Chrome seems to be driving the standards to make it very difficult to access any private, or local, services from a public origin.
10:12:04 From Jeff Miller One of the advantages of the current Federated Wiki scheme is that Marc can register a domain, and point it to a wiki farm which Ward hosts, and at a later time, can migrate the content of Marc's wikis to a different hosting platform suitable to different usage patterns.
10:14:58
10:14:58 From Paul Rodwell Link to an issue about running coffeescript in deno - https://github.com/jashkenas/coffeescript/issues/5150 might be possible in bun
10:16:04 From Jeff Miller Eric relates that a recent experiment with running Federated Wiki in a Deno Javascript runtime. Because Federated Wiki carries Coffeescript into the runtime, and Deno has a challenge in late-compiling Coffeescript to Javascript (in Eric's experiment), it will be more work. all domains used to be in a file resident at SRI-NIC in Menlo Park.
10:17:18 From Jeff Miller trips to Anguilla supporting .ai domains these days? (Ward referrs to ICANN members traveling widely) Ward says: thinking about the pre-DNS internet may be instructive, where sites and name resolution were manually passed around.
10:18:23 From Paul Rodwell the associated deno issue - https://github.com/denoland/deno/issues/1739
10:18:54 From Jeff Miller Ward considers mapping domains and subdomains, and how to separate and identify wiki sites inside the DNS system. Federated Wiki is hitting some of the limits of the DNS model for which sites are which, what are the governance boundaries.
10:21:39
10:21:39 From Jeff Miller Eric reflects that the problem of someone else wrapping your content in their site in a FedWiki context is similar to Mastodon's server and local name. Name collisions are possible if you consider different servers. Ward considers Smalltalk's short-name simplicity, where a class Point can have x and y; a Therm wiki can have a page Mercury about mercury switch ingredients.
10:23:37 From Marc Pierson I have a question
10:23:43 From Jeff Miller Let's consider a planetary astronomer; in some cases Mercury could be a page name for a planet, that in another sub-wiki, Mercury could be a page name for the element Hg.
10:24:21 From Paul Rodwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury - a very long disambiguation page.
10:24:32 From Jeff Miller Ward considers Wikipedia's case where there is a single flat namespace per language; that looking up "Mercury" gives rise to a disambiguation page. (tx Paul!)
10:26:05 From Jeff Miller In any case of a reference within Wikipedia, you have link text next to the actual link, "Mercury" in one context can have one page link or another, depending on context.
10:27:20 From Robert Best This implicit fork thing was at the root of other issues recently. Maybe the implicit fork could instead just create the same yellow halo to tell you you are only working with a local copy, and need to explicitly fork it in if you want it to persist...
10:27:23 From Jeff Miller Marc and Ward and David Bovill describe the limitation about dragging paragraphs from a page with a given title to a different page with the same title. Paul observes that there is a race condition which may try writing both the removed paragraph and the added paragraph in a way which can corrupt the page state on the server. (and then there's "drag the journal over" which was some strange magic for synchronizing pages)
10:28:08 From Marc Pierson Can I show you a little thing
10:28:34 From Jeff Miller Ward reflects that things do get fixed over time, sometimes small things, sometimes big things. Marc compares "https" and "http" behavior about creating a ghost page with prompts for different page templates -- http works, https does not work.
10:29:44 From Jeff Miller might be a script not loading in the https context? seen in the inspector UI for that page?
10:31:16 From Jeff Miller open a named page in the lineup, "Pattern Repository", as partway through the web client making attempts to paint a page with either a local page content, a remote page content, a set of suggestions for remote page alternatives, or a set of suggestions for making a new page from a page template.
10:33:29 From Jeff Miller the inspector shows a sequence of three page content fetch attempts
10:33:33 From Robert Best Ward's tries site doesn't offer HTTPS though right?
10:33:52 From Jeff Miller 404 for a local page 404 for a local neighborhood page 500 for kerry.tries.fed.wiki
10:35:02 From Jeff Miller (kerry.tries.fed.wiki only serves on HTTP/80 and not on HTTPS/443)
10:36:58 From Jeff Miller Paul speculates that WikiCafe may have an old version of the wiki server code, which results in that error seen for Kerry's site.
10:38:00 From Jeff Miller "because you're logged in, you're able to use the server proxy to fetch pages from HTTP sites, such as kerry.tries.fed.wiki, and serves it as HTTPS from the local server proxy endpoint on the relocalizecreativty domain."
10:42:18
10:42:18 From Jeff Miller related to the HTTP/HTTPS discussion, Kerry's wiki marked "/!\ Not Secure",
10:43:24 From Paul Rodwell @Robert Best The problem that Marc is seeing was fixed in wiki-server @ 0.22.1 - released 3 months ago. It did work with some old versions, but…
10:45:28 From Eric Dobbs I’m gonna look at the docker image I maintain.
10:49:06
10:49:06 From Eric Dobbs Hmm. I think they should have the fixed server version: docker run --rm dobbs/farm:1.0.20 wiki --version wiki: 0.31.0 wiki-server: 0.22.2 wiki-client: 0.27.1 wiki-security-friends: 0.2.5 wiki-security-passportjs: 0.8.2 …
10:52:11
10:52:11 From Paul Rodwell the very latest is wiki 0.32.1, from earlier today - add the changes to fork that provides better support for localhost to elsewhere, and maybe also login to view sites.
10:52:25 From David Bovill Eric - we’ll be working with Docker images here locally. Ive got some specific infrastructure I’m looking at that might interest you around that.
10:53:14 From Jeff Miller (back; post-immunization aches)
10:55:06 From Jeff Miller a book from a garden from stories from pages from paragraphs; beauty at each level. (Thompson Morrison)
10:56:14 From Jeff Miller wholeness goodness delight beauty at a paragraph level can unfold organically into a beautiful book; is that a process which could work in a collaborative book? Thompson describes his book creation journey with Ward, talking together regularly about the book process;
10:58:17 From Jeff Miller then the following journey with two Australian educators who showed up consistently. It was difficult but they kept showing up. Why? Because it was important to them as meaning-makers to learn this way of writing. It's like riding a bicycle -- awkward for a long time, until the process comes together.
10:58:31 From Eric Dobbs Were in the world is Astral Ship? http://david.ward.dojo.fed.wiki/astral-ship.html
10:59:05 From Jeff Miller Thompson relates that the writing style was revelatory for the educators; that they unfolded new meanings in their own stories.
11:00:26 From Jeff Miller "any link to a garden page must have forty edges" as a design principle for the shared pages within the garden of common things. Thompson and Ward noticed together that "forty edges" emerged as a consequence of Thompson's structure, how many paragraphs and how many links within a page. Thompson is able to recover the pattern of forty edges when the garden has too few or too many edges to a page; that the shape is inadvertently off, and can be mended.
11:01:37 From Shikhar on phone Reacted to Were in the world is... with "🍰"
11:02:00 From Paul Rodwell Richard Gabriel - https://dreamsongs.com/
11:02:02 From Jeff Miller Thompson relates inspiration from Richard Gabriel's haiku; Gabriel is a reflective practicioner of Lisp programming, song composition, and poetry.
11:03:12 From Jeff Miller Thompson points to two new book projects which prompt current work with Ward on turning the process of editing the book into a set of back-end workflows, and at the same time, improving the way which people learn the wiki writing processes and patterns. This plan is to have two collaborative books out within the next year.
11:04:18 From Jeff Miller "exactly the same number of pages as The Dayton Experiment and in The Joyful Sandbox" (Thompson's first book; the collaborative book following on the first book)
11:05:31 From Jeff Miller "Now you have to feel what it's like to write in the wiki -- think back on the past week, and there's a meaningful surprise in your experience reflecting on how you see the world. Name that surprise. Write a page to explain the meaning you've discovered. Now let's put that page into the wiki haiku form."
11:06:34 From Jeff Miller Thompson says: do the diagram last; the diagram will help you understand the meaning unfold. "Linda, can you use the diagram to take twenty minutes and tell a story explaining the concepts from your page?" - it opens and delights a greater whole. The new experiment is to write two books simultaneously, with collaboration and cross-fertilization.
11:08:01 From Jeff Miller Ward reflects that part of the genesis of this experiment of writing together every day, sharing a meaning-making experience, was to share Ward's interest in robust resilience in cloud-hosted services; Thompson's interest in robust resilience within a school system. Ward notes that the interest was in part because of Thompson's faster and more diverse process within the school system, compared to Ward's experience of slower progress in the work services context.
11:09:35 From Jeff Miller Thompson notes that entangled thinking within Ward and Thompson's experience doing meaning-making together was a spark for entangled meaning-making as a project to further explore.
11:10:40 From Jeff Miller Ward notes that after a week of reading and writing in parallel, but not closely entangled - little page forking, little content shared - the concepts and inspirations of looking at each other's meaning-making processes was generative and productive.
11:12:01 From Jeff Miller Thompson reflects that Linda, as a new author, was able to quickly get onboarded into the writing style and (says Ward) to create beautiy on beauty, from Thompson's prompting and suggestions and available pages that already have the property of beauty in content and structure.
11:12:02 From Paul Rodwell a link to Linda’s page that Thompson mentioned- http://found.linda.ustawi.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/core-strength
11:12:51 From Jeff Miller Thompson (to a question about beauty): it's central; it's about delighting your future self; your future self stumbles on your past self, and it allows you to be a faster and more powerful meaning maker for yourself. (Jeff reflects: this is very much Cory Doctorow's "Memex" blog) a question from Tobias about beauty and meaning-making
11:14:02 From Jeff Miller reflection from Eric D: meaning-making which can be sharing is a spark, the one that Thompson is excited about. How do you create a community which will sustain a process of generating more meaningful work? from Tobias's introductory notes about sustainable meaning-making
11:15:37 From Tobias Fechner (he/him) Truthful, even if relative
11:15:53 From Jeff Miller ("The Memex Method" https://craphound.com/news/2021/05/23/the-memex-method/ ) about rediscovering context by reviewing your previous self-discoveries, written more clearly to be read by others but significantly written for present and future serlf.
11:17:04 From Jeff Miller Thompson talks about making each paragraph clear when writing in a wiki, in wiki-haiku form. Each paragraph should stay simple and clear; you have only one concept. Make that clear. (partly Ward's question). Make that page beautiful. "Do you feel that's beautiful? No? Keep working. Do you feel it now? There."
11:17:51 From Marc Pierson I look forward to seeing Tobias and Shikhar and David again soon. Nice seeing you Thompson. I have to go to dinner.
11:18:09 From Jeff Miller Ward asks, for everyone present: where's a good starting point for your writing process? Thompson says: I'll share three pages, an "emergent trivium", about Wiki Haiku, about emergence and unfolding, and you can't unfold something unless it's beautiful. You don't engineer that unfolding, you participate in it.
11:19:17 From Marc Pierson The idea that asks for exploration. I seldom am writing for others. Thinking in wiki.
11:19:45 From Jeff Miller We don't quite know what the two books are, but it's all process-based; it's the application of the lambda calculus, instantiate an abstraction.
11:19:50 From Marc Pierson Bye for now.
11:19:56 From Shikhar on phone Reacted to I look forward to se... with "❤️"
11:19:59 From Jeff Miller bye Marc! Thompson continues: we have these authors, these educators, contributing and editing stories. Why can't everyone tell their stories as books? A student at end of term, here's their published book.
11:22:46
11:22:46 From Jeff Miller Ward reflects, generally about Wiki, that everyone who gets something out of Wiki, they create a process which gives them something for their wants and needs; often a way of collaborating together in working. Paul and Eric and David have been around that cycle multiple times.
11:24:43 From Jeff Miller David B reflects: nonlinear work, wiki form; that forks and branches give you lots of unfinished stuff. Every little bit of the wiki, individually, can be a little ugly as unfinished. That Thompson's emphasis on wiki, contrasted with naive wiki usage, sprawling of ideas and pages, Thompson's emphasis on beauty is a counter-force to the temptations to sprawl and leave dangling threads.
11:24:52 From Tobias Fechner (he/him) I think of the word essence also
11:25:46 From Paul Rodwell 4th grade is 9-10 years
11:25:56 From Tobias Fechner (he/him) Thanks Paul! :)
11:26:07 From Jeff Miller David says: the language of beauty and uplift is not always natural to the writer or user of wiki, or to a person who could benefit from writing in this style. Having other terms can be helpful to meet people where they're at.
11:27:28 From Jeff Miller David Bovill continues: I think of the process of creating a piece of media, of a podcast or a documentary; that Thompson's focus on the quality of a page aimed at a printed text - how does that transfer to the quality of the resulting sort of media, elsewhere? (I am thinking of the voice-of-the-book wiki as a fourth author space in Thompson's collaborative work The Joyful Sandbox)
11:29:36 From Jeff Miller David B: can the wiki haiku minimalism be used to inspire, to weave in more media-oriented end products with the collective that we'll be working on? Can we bring in multiple skills, methods, and perspectives? The haiku-like simplicity might help with the tendency to have messy edges in wiki-based work.
11:31:06 From Jeff Miller Eric says: hearing Thompson and Ward together today, helps me reflect on my own method. I end up with tangled, meandering sets of pages which lack coherence. I don't want to write a book, as such, but I want to write coherent material. Thompson and Ward's reflection on beauty as a source of structure and coherence is evident and relevant.
11:32:29 From Jeff Miller David B: I'd like a little baby wiki graph to be the thing to pass around, that I can message someone this object, and it can open up when it arrives. These little tiny wikis, if they arise, can find each other and stick to each other in some fuzzier way -- person / slug / domain-name / some concepts -- where in this loose network can I find friends to be inspired by, in their work?
11:32:54 From Eric Dobbs Was just looking at this old article from Jon Udell about a single-page database: https://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/07/09/udell.html
11:33:13 From Jeff Miller I"m imagining little WASM objects, or MP4s with metadata, forming a graph around a wiki page -- more than just text, but a thing of beauty as it's finished through this process. Jon Udell! "Practical Internet Groupware" as pre-social-media (pre eGroups etc.)
11:34:27 From Jeff Miller twenty years ago! xhtml + xslt as a single document TiddlyWiki quine as a self-contained interactive database
11:35:45 From Tobias Fechner (he/him) A reflection: Writing in Haiku is a process of discerning, requiring bringing more intention to qualify what is most essential about a given page/ concept. The page reflects this quality of intention which, when the future self comes back to it later on, might be part of what re-inspires. Re-inspired future self can then bring further discernment etc. etc.
11:37:08 From Jeff Miller Jeff M's experiments at a smaller scale with single-page interactive self-contained items like http://aristobit.com/misc/ (none of the "reaching out" idea) Ward reflects that Thompson's standard of structure as beauty, he's talking about a reachable form inspired by Richard Gabriel's notions of wiki.
11:38:08 From Brian Jeff, you were sort of describing what I think the "Blocks Protocol" is attempting to do. https://blockprotocol.org/
11:38:28 From Jeff Miller Ward recounts that the collaboration in The Joyful Sandbox helped tighten a structure for the shared "garden" pages.
11:38:40 From Paul Rodwell and Alexander’s beauty links back to Whitehead
11:39:02 From Jeff Miller interesting, I am hearing a lot about Whitehead from other places.
11:39:19 From Tobias Fechner (he/him) What's their full name? Please
11:39:28 From Jeff Miller Alfred North Whitehead
11:39:32 From Tobias Fechner (he/him) Thank you
11:39:36 From Jeff Miller philosopher of meaning and science "The Two Cultures" I think was his work? I may misremember.
11:39:53 From Paul Rodwell probably a good link - http://www.carlsensei.com/docs/essays/whitehead/
11:40:25 From Tobias Fechner (he/him) Reacted to "probably a good link..." with 👍
11:41:01 From Jeff Miller Ward recounts a story of carving out a selection of pages from the garden and the stories into a book -- that in order for the book to work, that Thompson reconnects any broken links using a set of tools which Ward wrote to support those cases -- like the Hypertext Supercollaborator.
11:42:15 From Jeff Miller Any broken links, to stay beautiful within Thompson's form, during the selection of pages to become a book, must be redirected in amongst the pages which are present in the book; this caused some merging and breaking of pages in the wiki which was destined to become the book source. David B: reflection that there might have to be more templates and building blocks in a wiki that isn't destined to be a text-first book like Thompson's work.
11:43:06 From Brian Structure also provides a starting point and gets alignment to a first order. Then refine/customize from there.
11:43:17 From Tobias Fechner (he/him) Reacted to "Structure also provi..." with 👍
11:43:45 From Jeff Miller There might be a wiki haiku sort of page; there might be other sorts of pages that are hyper-connectors, that are centred upon items of media -- how do we make the graph a beautiful shape and structure to wrap around a linear narrative.
11:45:18 From Jeff Miller "If you're interested in pausing and going deeper, those links for deeper information are present within the context of the linear media stream, whether video or podcast"
11:46:38 From Jeff Miller Automatic chapter-ization and transcripts of a podcast; you can click on it, and then get a summarization of that part of the podcast. It's a tool for the reader, and maybe you want to take those clips, summaries, etc. and put them on a wiki to arrange them as a set of concepts. -- those things are more present and accessible with AI supported context. It's a super-exciting space now, where we have time-coded transcriptions of podcasts and videos;
11:47:29 From Brian I've heard that snipd integrates with Obsidian pretty well.
11:47:29 From Jeff Miller that language-based AI can support transcription; it's pennies rather than dollars, some sort of a budget, but not like hiring a transcriptionist.
11:48:02 From Brian I've used the llama2.cpp file to do transcripting of .wav files on my own machine and it's pretty good.
11:48:28 From Jeff Miller for example: (Medium hosted blog) https://blog.snipd.com/how-to-take-notes-from-podcasts-with-snipd-6dd564d1c4ae and https://www.snipd.com/ David describes a vision of producing a video, audio, transcription together with links in context
11:50:16 From Jeff Miller Bret Victor - ex-Apple UI, direct manipulation interfaces; inspiring how to make concepts into interactive presentations and models from David's media collective's works.
11:52:18 From Jeff Miller Ward (to David) - how many things are you trying to connect? For a document, ten things, perhaps, fits; For a hypertext, a hundred things work. Or you move things to another, related wiki. Large, fat pages are limited in how Wiki works with backup, with manipulation, with interaction.
11:52:36 From Brian There is the "writing to think" part, where the writing is the research and expanding your brain, maybe even collaborating with others, still in the research phase. Then there is the "writing for an audience" phase where the research is transformed into a story for a given audience, using their jargon, their metaphores, and with the perspective and interests relevant to that audience. That means though, that each audience is going to desire a "customized view" into the underlying research material.
11:52:45 From Jeff Miller Ward reflects: ten thousand things in a file is not huge, these days; unless the things are images.
11:54:00 From Jeff Miller Ward says: I have a hundred and fifty observations every three seconds from observing signals off amateur radio; but they don't work as a wiki -- a stream of a terabyte worth; that lives a place where it's managed separately from the wiki itself, or a shared wiki farm. (to David B's media collective plans)
11:56:07 From Jeff Miller David B: AI assistance in the UX, in a Bret Victor way; to gather people together in a room, to speak to one another, and to have that conversation transcribed into a wiki page with text. Having the affordances for the speakers do well, that the process of creation is ergonomically beautiful - the AI would be part of capturing that. (the Hillside Group gathering? - Jeff) (to Ward's note about overlapping and simultaneous conversations)
11:57:11 From Jeff Miller David B: I was thinking about more thoughtful performances, like a lightning talk or talking stick for structure. David B notes to Ward: so there was not a lot of forking of pages going on between the two of you, in parallel work. Ward says: yes, we were working on generally related ideas, but distinct topics.
11:59:59
11:59:59 From Jeff Miller Ward says: the mechanism that Thompson and I developed was to create a book wiki, which was the point of focus for the tools and attention. Things which were going to make it into the book were deliberately forked in. Jess and David, as co-authors, had their content brought from their wikis into the "book" wiki, and Thompson added / brought in his page last of the authors, working around the other co-authors' pages and stories. (David asks a clarifying question)
12:03:05
12:03:05 From Paul Rodwell for example the start of Jess’s story - http://book.reimage.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/its-not-okay
12:03:10 From Jeff Miller Ward answers: there were three authors; Thompson as philosopher and organizer; Jess as master teacher; David as educatinoal administrator. Each of them had twenty-thirty pages of individually authored STORY pages, which referred to pages into the GARDEN for shared concepts. Thompson's wiki haiku structure was inspired by pruning a pear tree. Thompson might give some suggestions for word-searches for related stories and reflections. (also a note about a GARDEN structured to have arcs to follow which don't lead to getting lost or confused)
12:04:28 From Jeff Miller Eric says: the more-honest multiple stories are anti-colonial, anti-melting pot (like things I've been seeing on Netflix later) - that the stories are kept personal and specific and unique, which you might be able to reflect on and be inspired by. Chris Casillas, in Superior Arizona, has a community center. Superior was a company town, originally, so the creation of a community focus, is a conscious effort to retell the story from the people who are still there.
12:05:08 From Paul Rodwell and the children go to school so they can go work in the mine
12:05:40 From Jeff Miller Eric reflects on the ghost towns, former mining towns, in Colorado, and compares Chris in Superior, Arizona.
12:07:11 From Jeff Miller that there re comparison points between the people in Wales; the indigenous students in Queensland; the students in Africa (via Ward and Eric); Kavita's work in Africa; ustawi, an African word, a feeling of connectnedness to nature.
12:07:20 From Brian Ward, did you get your DB query problem figured out?
12:07:35 From Paul Rodwell ustawi, from Swahili - health, safety, well-being, happiness and prosperity
12:07:41 From Jeff Miller (via Ward and Eric since they were both talking about the anti-colonial, residents-first orientation) David B: "action" is the word I'm looking for - how does the writing process prompt action? I saw some pages that talked about the writing process and taking action.
12:09:12 From Jeff Miller David B: it's a beautiful social architecture, creating books; I'm seeking invitations to act, to participate, like a wiki page being an invitation to contribute. David B: considering the people who are already at the coal face of taking action - how can we have orientation toward action as a purpose of collaborative work and writing in wiki?
12:10:32 From Jeff Miller Ward says; the notion of orientation toward reaction, that having a learning model, and testing the model for surprises, is a way of learning faster. "I have a model conflict". (thinking of "the gap of noumena and phenomena" in the Black Tulip residuality theory pages)
12:11:40 From Jeff Miller Thompson's process, "digs" - a week-long process, every day; there's no agenda, except what we create together.
12:11:50 From Paul Rodwell http://thompson.reimage.fed.wiki/appreciating-friston.html
12:12:37 From Jeff Miller "Karl Friston, the neuroscientist." about Thompson's DiG framework in Paul's link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J._Friston ("dynamical systems", "neuroimaging")
12:14:27 From Jeff Miller http://thompson.reimage.fed.wiki/view/designed-ingenuity-dig (working with groups of educators)
12:15:28 From Jeff Miller http://thompson.reimage.fed.wiki/view/designed-ingenuity-dig/view/the-dayton-practice/view/learning-cycles Ward relates a consistent experience where Thompson's participants have to be pushed into being creative, and that experience is transforming for them. (as Eric reflects).
12:16:58 From Jeff Miller David B says: it's a common experience in theatre; there's a regular and predictable crisis point.
12:18:08 From Jeff Miller Brian reflects: the crisis point is seen in other contexts. Chefs can be very intentional in highlighting one property of a dish, putting it forward as a tension point, that's resolved by the whole dish. And in music, tension and resolution.
12:19:50 From Jeff Miller Ward's "EPISODES" pattern language learned in writing financial software. A thing which you thought might be a week long ... it would be much more work. But once you got to the top of the mountain, you could see where things would need to be worked out. But in the pattern language, you had to leave, in the code, evidence of the directon of working out which needed to happen in the code. Ward says: "we'd have to leave things in a place that wasn't beautiful, in order to make progress every week; but we managed the technical debt, as we named the not-beautiful code, so that it did not become a burden."
12:21:30 From Jeff Miller The term of "technical debt" as related to learning is lost in modern agile practices. Learning as a core part of agile development is largely gone.
12:22:33 From Brian For example, I've cut and paste and make some substitutions with a TODO in the comment that it has to be refactored, tested, etc...but it works for "today"
12:22:39 From Jeff Miller Eric says: let me reflect the story back to you, Ward; you were deliberately managing complexity, of unresolved work, using a financial metaphor, "debt".
12:23:03 From Paul Rodwell maybe the page that David was thinking about - http://found.ward.bay.wiki.org/free-energy-principle.html - passed between Ward and Thompson and back, and is linked to from 18 pages in Thompson’s Wellspring wiki.
12:23:50 From Brian Tufte has a good unit on organizaing tables. For example, what is in the first column, sort by a different column, use of bold, highlight rows, etc to ensure that the table can tell a rich story.
12:23:58 From Jeff Miller Ward says: yes, and one example was the report writer - delivered in a useful but not completely beautiful mechanism; and we let our customers drive us forward by requesting "and we'd like it to be sorted by columns other than time" and "and we'd like to maintain the running balance, which only makes sense in a chronological sort".
12:24:28 From Brian sqlite is probably one of the most sustainible software products around. YAGNI has been so valuable for me...it's a form of debt though.
12:25:48 From Jeff Miller Eric says: "software development has never had sustainable practices, a point important for understanding how we're going to do work in our present situation" -- so, having stories that set the concept of technical debt clearly within a their context, those stories help me communicate what we need.
12:25:49 From Brian XP says do the smallest "vertical" that provides value first. It's so much easier to get extra time/money/resources after having something working.
12:27:37 From Brian Exploitive people are not fun to be around.
12:27:38 From Jeff Miller Ward says: one of the secrets for adding features and behavior was that message sends could largely stay the same in structure, while the interpretation of the message sends could be augmented to add the feature. You could program in Go, using that structure, but it isn't necessarily the familiar idiom.
12:28:59 From Jeff Miller Ward says: I didn't enjoy working with the people around finance; the program itself was very interesting.
12:30:02 From Jeff Miller Ward reflects a story about an early, interesting program at Tektronix, related to creating a software-designed radio receiver (for TVs) - the system which could generate those circuits was very interesting. Ward reflects on a resolution-independent graphics model, right before Postscript came out.
12:31:07 From Jeff Miller And being close to the transistors had a special feel to it; after working in research, moving to Smalltalk at Tektronix. "For as little work as I put into wiki, it has properties that were unseen before it."
12:33:38
12:33:38 From Jeff Miller Brewster Kahle early in to the Internet Archive eat, pray, archive "would you like to look up that site on the Internet Archive?"
12:37:00
12:37:00 From Jeff Miller Jimmy Wales (Wikipedia visionary)
12:39:24 From Jeff Miller Ward relates: Jimmy Wales was fueled by libertarian ideals, but the rationale for Wikipedia was one that he brought from college, and then inspired many, many contributors to work together to create and review material in many languages.