Text extraction. See Typescript Archive, also the list in Typescript Transcripts
09:09:10
09:09:10 From Jeff Miller what FORTRAN program? (I read over the source of TREK.EXE once upon a time) oh, Crowther and Woods' Adventure! (my dad printed out the source of the terminal star trek game; you had to write your own string library)
09:10:32 From Jeff Miller CRAM loaded up an array with characters; CRMDMP sent it to the terminal. it had hours available and hours not available you could configure the game to not be available during daytime work houfs hours
09:11:35 From Jeff Miller nod Kerbal Space Program in realtime mode? (Ward's early game of tag as a spaceship game)
09:12:30 From Brian Tag with a multiday lag for information seems intriguing.
09:12:52 From Jeff Miller there's a sense in which play by mail games were like this
09:13:00 From Brian Adversarial gaming...
09:13:00 From Jeff Miller or a game like Callisto
09:14:38 From Jeff Miller https://wiki.c2.com/?HarryChesley https://www.mykeeper.com/profile/HarryChesley/
09:15:35 From Paul Rodwell reminds me of the more recent Among Us
09:15:43 From Jeff Miller https://wiki.c2.com/?GordonLetwin (Gordon as the spy in the tag game)
09:18:08 From Jeff Miller http://wiki.c2.com/?JeffreyMiller
09:22:02
09:22:02 From Brian Good evening Marc. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330116587_4_Essentials_of_resilience_revisited looks at resilience from 4 perspectives: as rebound, as robustness, as graceful extensibility, and as sustained adaptability.
09:22:14 From Jeff Miller SVG == Love :)
09:23:34 From Marc Pierson Cool. I actually know David Woods, as does Eric and Ward, I think.
09:23:47 From Jeff Miller radial gradient and linear gradient and animation in SVG: http://aristobit.com/svg/radar.svg
09:26:04 From Jeff Miller (history of early FedWiki sites; some of them now retired and out of search; the search engine knows the names of some of the lost pages in a backup accident) oh I guess image inclusion works for the first page on C2 but not subsequent pages (or pages found and added to the UI via search?)
09:28:20 From Jeff Miller a missing site is rendered on a roster as a gray/grey radial gradient flag
09:32:49
09:32:49 From Jeff Miller The Crowther and Woods FORTRAN source, with a fedwiki commentary with a page for each FORTRAN statement, cave.fed.wiki.org in retired-from-federation-search sites.
09:32:56 From Paul Rodwell ignore anything you might have heard me saying I had a copy, I don’t it was just an artefact left over from search back in 2015.
09:33:25 From Brian https://github.com/WardCunningham/cave-wiki
09:41:41
09:41:41 From Jeff Miller (a discussion of Frame / iframe rules for same-origin content; a remote frame can fetch content and scripts from its own remote origin; a remote frame whose domain is the same as the main document cannot fetch scripts because of the danger that user-generated-content can break the frame security boundary when a frame's domain matches the same domain as the main document) (discussion of http / https hosting for scripts)
09:43:32 From Eric Dobbs https://github.com/WardCunningham/cave-wiki/blob/master/build.rb#L309
09:43:51 From Jeff Miller (brb, re-upping beverage)
09:46:23
09:46:23 From Ward Cunningham https://raw.githubusercontent.com/WardCunningham/cave-wiki/master/block.svg
09:48:32 From Marc Pierson https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/scotland
09:49:02 From Eric Dobbs https://tree-sitter.github.io/tree-sitter/ ?
09:49:27 From Brian https://github.com/Wilfred/difftastic
09:52:05
09:52:05 From Paul Rodwell nice demo of difftastic - https://asciinema.org/a/480875
09:52:39 From Jeff Miller (back from the hungry crows) oh nice! (Ward's SVG of the cave wiki)
09:54:21 From Jeff Miller AST-aware diffs (e.g. for method extraction) Visual Age Smalltalk's ENVY repository
09:58:10
09:58:10 From Jeff Miller (Marc discusses a blood test panel in terms of anomaly testing) an angiogram (but why?)
10:01:35
10:01:35 From Jeff Miller (Ward recalls the WyCash Smalltalk column functions -- pick 6 functions by name -- vs. the C++ report writing language for column oriented function code -- but who is the language going to be used by?) (#6 was sort while preserving a running balance according to the post date)
10:03:19 From Jeff Miller (Brian comments about the enthusiasm for a general automated solution being misdirected when applied to the beneficiaries' needs)
10:05:52
10:05:52 From Brian https://bartoszmilewski.com/2014/10/28/category-theory-for-programmers-the-preface/
10:06:09 From Jeff Miller (a side discussion about category theory, mathematics, chemical orbitals as the basis of a math techniques; the attraction of category theory as the math-iest of maths like physics is the science-y-est of sciences)
10:06:53 From Ward Cunningham https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/act_course/
10:08:50 From Jeff Miller (MIT Open Courseware on Category Theory)
10:09:31 From Eric Dobbs http://www.math.toronto.edu/coxeter/ https://www.amazon.com/King-Infinite-Space-Coxeter-Geometry/dp/0802714994 Read this book about Coxeter… my understanding is his work in geometry solved some important problems that algebraic approaches couldn’t manage… and it became category theory.
10:09:36 From Jeff Miller https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/18-s097-applied-category-theory-january-iap-2019/pages/syllabus/ preservation of properties from one graph to a transformed graph "a stairway that is safe" "a pattern for a class of stairways which are safe"
10:10:48 From Jeff Miller (inferring the common structure from examples - Alexandrian Patterns) category theory -- reasoning about the group of things which you can do by composing functions, using them via combinatoric logic
10:11:57 From Jeff Miller "a function which takes a string and produces an integer" and then combinatoric logic lets you look at moves which transform the sets of operations while preserving interesting or useful properties (from Brian)
10:12:43 From Marc Pierson Is the purpose of all this to get it so that a digital computer (0-1) to deal with levels of abstraction?
10:13:04 From Jeff Miller Ward recalls the mapping of grammars to syntax in compilers as being a useful approach to preserving properties.
10:14:37 From Jeff Miller Brian says (to Marc's question) combinatorics and functional languages add both efficiency and reliability to the procedures we use. Being able to compose many small steps reliably ends up being useful, increasingly useful as we deal with large amounts of data and want to break down parallel work. a pipeline of transformations (as a pattern for combinatoric application) functional languages like Haskell lazy iterators and producers, only called on when the value is required
10:17:11
10:17:11 From Jeff Miller The composition and re-composition allows you to adapt to the needs to understand and reason about the problems; it also allows the automated runtime to effectively make use of the hardware and software.
10:18:41 From Jeff Miller (there are a few finer points about combinators and things not terminating / getting stuck in infinite loops depending on what order you evaluate things in -- going from combinatoric logic statements to actual working systems) "fixed-point combinators" famously soft vs. hard systems dynamics
10:19:43 From Jeff Miller "I'm betting on grandmothers"
10:21:44 From Jeff Miller Brian: as long as you don't ask people what makes them happy, because they don't tend to answer well.
10:22:09 From Marc Pierson Barbara Fredrickson’s positivity ratio.
10:22:27 From Jeff Miller Brian says: "if you have enough money to rent an apartment, and if you say hi to six people in a day, those things are enough to make most people happy"
10:22:43 From Brian https://www.drlauriesantos.com/
10:22:52 From Marc Pierson https://marc.relocalizecreativity.net/view/panas-10
10:23:12 From Jeff Miller Ward recalls: "Kurt Vonnegut goes to the store to buy a stamp" as a story which gets him out in the community, with getting the postage stamp as a thing which joins him to the people there.
10:24:29 From Jeff Miller https://blog.garrytan.com/kurt-vonnegut-goes-to-buy-an-envelope-profund
10:25:16 From Brian Mastodon is like https://fedwikiriver.com/ with the ability to interact with the post.
10:26:30 From Brian I think making an activitypub service to wrap Ward's search would be an interesting project, but I want to knock off a couple items on my list before jumping into that.
10:27:17 From Jeff Miller (Marc's question about the analogy of Mastodon as a federated microblogging service to Federated Wiki as a federated set of pages, with Brian's answer, and with Ward's answer about a periodic federation search) "FedWiki spreads like gossip, with every six hours, a pulse of indexing" There is then a deterministic list of sites to probe It was easy to code.
10:29:09 From Jeff Miller Ward gives the example of relocalizecreativity and fixing the federation routing (temporarily broken by rules about domain names with "local") and taking a few cycles to evaluate the federation indexing fixes. Ward describes the Dayton High School special case logic called "present" which was separate from the normal federation protocol.
10:30:18 From Jeff Miller Andrew Shell connected to that (and Thompson Morrison likes that) - and you can assemble a roster of related present sites within the same set of subdomains.
10:31:33 From Jeff Miller Eric: nothing stopping bad actors from doing something terrible with federated wiki code.
10:34:07
10:34:07 From Jeff Miller (many of these decentralized protocols are not particularly private -- you can add a listener to follow along, and so that any organization can't keep terrible secrets)
10:38:16
10:38:16 From Brian No polls should be paid any attention at this point. Wait about until 2 months before election to put much emotional care into them.
10:38:37 From Marc Pierson http://kerry.tries.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/do-it-naturally
10:38:57 From Paul Rodwell Back to tree sitting - page comparing the output of standard git diff and using difftastic - http://goals.pod.rodwell.me/difftastic.html
10:40:48 From Jeff Miller Kerry leads Lydia through "why do we pick up horse manure" from "what are the consequences of not picking it up?" to "oh! we better pick it up!"
10:42:24 From Jeff Miller (a discussion about parenting, decisions, and consequences)
10:44:01 From Jeff Miller (Daniel Dennett's "belief in belief" meme: we tend to admire people for strong beliefs, the stronger they are, somehow the more admirable)
10:45:36 From Brian We either assimilate or accommodate when given conflicting information. I tend to default to "better definitions"...wrt god, then my breakthrough was there was no "interventionalist God" as demonstrated by any evidence that I'm willing to accept as evidence for there being an interventionalist god. Then when I saw most of it as a power structure...Those types of religions appealed a lot less to me.
10:46:14 From Jeff Miller religions of belief, vs. religions of celebration
10:46:24 From Brian Yeah!
10:46:57 From Jeff Miller (a late point of comparison I figured out by hanging out with the revivalist pagans, from the US background of very creed-based Protestantism)
10:48:19 From Jeff Miller Marc observes: corruption, whether by kleptocracy or other means; imagine wrapping the EIP diagram into a circle, with a core; pour some terrible liquid into the core well, and someone takes an extractive toll in every interaction.
10:48:29 From Eric Dobbs Riffing on Ward’s story about Cold War fears: Nuclear near miss 1979. Test data of simulated war escaped into production notifications. https://www.usenix.org/conference/srecon23americas/presentation/travaglini
10:50:29 From Paul Rodwell never say never - pie chart in a node, in graphviz - http://goals.pod.rodwell.me/scratch.html
10:50:46 From Jeff Miller Marc reflects: in Whatcom County, there are established interests who don't want things to change. digraph G { { node [shape=circle style=wedged fillcolor="red;0.3:green;0.6:orange"] A node [style=solid fillcolor="white" ] B C } B -> A B -> C }
10:51:47 From Brian https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4776 Bertrand Russell Political Ideals.
10:52:40 From Eric Dobbs Also a strange source of hope for me was learning about ad hoc communication systems by POWs in Viet Nam. Even in the most tyrranical circumstances, humans find a way to support each other. https://dobbse.net/thinair/2002/11/veterans-day.html
10:53:34 From Jeff Miller Ward returns to the mechanism of the Federation search. There's a site explaining who's in the federation, based on the scrape server. Note the "Visible Federation" page grouped by IP address and number of sites at that IP address. the Glitch-based site is slow to warm up so that it might not respond quickly (and might have a gray flag on a given scrape)
10:55:44 From Jeff Miller Donald Noyes on C2 (Ward mentions Donald Noyes related to the visible federation) https://wiki.c2.com/?DonaldNoyes
10:56:51 From Jeff Miller or more fresh: http://c2.asia.wiki.org/view/donald-noyes [courtesy of Google Search]
11:00:14
11:00:14 From Jeff Miller the bundle chart with the circle of sites and one site referring to the other, using D3 visualization use "tension" to bundle up the lines
11:01:32 From Jeff Miller [I recall seeing that same view of a software module diagram, a circle with names around the circumference and reference lines connecting across the circle] Marc's presentation at the Metaphorum of Stafford Beer's system management work, consulting on it.
11:02:41 From Jeff Miller the Metaphorum presentation included a snapshot of the Federated Wiki federation.
11:03:34 From Paul Rodwell there is also http://www.circos.ca/ which might offer something extra to the D3 version
11:03:38 From Jeff Miller example from Mike Bostock: https://gist.github.com/mbostock/1044242 linked from https://d3-graph-gallery.com/bundle.html
11:04:50 From Jeff Miller (the thumbnail is pretty small) https://www.google.com/search?q=d3js+bundle+diagram
11:05:26 From Marc Pierson https://vimeo.com/846687058?share=copy
11:06:29 From Jeff Miller (d3-graph-gallery is a little bit animated-ad-noisy) Marc describes taking a sequence of conversations with the output as diagrams (useful during or after the conversations) - and you want to share the results according to "Pattern Theory" (Marc holds up a book)
11:07:40 From Jeff Miller Helmut Leitner, Pattern Theory
11:08:20 From Marc Pierson https://vimeo.com/869046991?share=copy Chris at DGForum
11:08:57 From Jeff Miller (Ward describes the pause screen for a Vimeo video on the tablet, showing pictures of Marc, Kerry, and someone unfamiliar -- as Vimeo's suggestions for next videos)
11:10:15 From Jeff Miller 846687058 = Metaphorum 2023 "Workshop", Cave Drawings for the 21st Century, Kerry Turner and Marc Pierson - Help sought sharing handy models for neighborhood use.
11:11:18 From Jeff Miller 869046991 = "Chris at DGForum" - starting with a photo from the newspaper, Wednesday December 22, 1993, uploaded by Marc Pierson
11:12:39 From Jeff Miller Marc describes a number of examples where policy people regarding patients or regarding citizens and residents as agents without agency - they're operated on rather than being actors themselves. In medical policy, it's related to extracting money.
11:14:12 From Jeff Miller Brian says; some optimism; since 2016, a recognition that social scientists need to be part of STEM policy and programming. Better understanding of reactionary populist movements -- what are they for? it's a community of mutual support and understanding.
11:15:31 From Jeff Miller Brian describes a typical human resistance to receiving direction without previously establishing a relationship of trust or credibility: "no". Brian says: and in order to engage people, you need to meet them where they are at, to understand their situation.
11:16:13 From Ward Cunningham Also this from danah boyd a few days ago. Her observations are always thoughtful and tempered as one would expect from a researcher. http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2023/09/26/the-screens-are-the-symptom.html
11:16:18 From Jeff Miller Brian says: Chris's account did very well in describing how to do this.
11:17:35 From Paul Rodwell Just saying NO is probably also related to primacy
11:18:23 From Jeff Miller Brian relates that influencing behavior comes from previous relationships of sympathy -- even ones like celebrity -- for making a message land with an audience.
11:20:38 From Jeff Miller Eric relates a story for the new Colorado football coach - a visible successful black man, out front and visible -- as something which transforms the community which is otherwise hidden, doing the invisible work. Noting that the coach is genuinely strong in his role, not just famous.
11:21:51 From Jeff Miller Marc talks about Kerry's launch of a project at the Schumacher Center. celebrity-based marketing works for a certain kind of outcome but it doesn't necessarily work for a change in habits, like conversations together at the neighborhood level.
11:23:15 From Paul Rodwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK_50_Mile
11:24:03 From Jeff Miller Jeff brings up the notion of what brings people together at the community level for mutual understanding and support: "a new church".
11:24:24 From Eric Dobbs Marc is looking for the hidden experts out in the world http://wander.dbbs.co/six-levels-down.html
11:24:36 From Jeff Miller Marc says: I don't want people doing the work who haven't done it before.
11:24:57 From Paul Rodwell Replying to "https://en.wikipedia..." https://ultrarunninghistory.com/50-mile-frenzy/
11:26:56 From Jeff Miller "Athenahealth", a story of how to build communities which called on a medical billing expert, Sue Henderson, about someone who had deep knowledge in context
11:28:25 From Jeff Miller She was able to figure out billing problems based on her expertise; and Athenahealth was the the result. Sue's encapsulated expertise was able to match up the need for reimbursement with the steps that would need to happen to get the insurer to reimburse the medical bill. The value you need is "six levels down" in your organization. That's where the embedded, contextual knowledge is present.
11:30:19 From Jeff Miller the cognitive surplus (and enthusiasm surplus) present in most organizations, but limited by hierarchical management and decision-making
11:31:31 From Jeff Miller (Marc's experience with a specific healthcare provider for lower-income folks as an example of bridled surplus which is being held back by the structure)
11:33:11 From Jeff Miller Ward describes a stage play with a bar in a company town. A woman among the folks in the bar was promoted into management and she was no longer "one of them", no longer a worker complaining about the company management.
11:35:05 From Jeff Miller Marc describes hopes and plans for neighborhood organization; looking for the folks with the potential to be transformative; giving Chris some more tools for see-one, do-one, teach-one knowledge spreading. Marc: "should we have an official organization? after a discussion, we settled on NO, we should not."
11:37:04 From Jeff Miller Brian suggests a similar approach based on his brother's experience with agricultural practice sharing. If you can find someone like the local ag teacher, that person might be able to find the people who could be the new "Chris" for that location. Having that person promote a talk for Chris's discussion of his neighborhood org work.
11:38:17 From Jeff Miller Ward recalls how Marc recruited Chris via the viable system modeling talk, where Chris was looking for VSM content on Vimeo and that's how he found and connected with Marc. Marc's longterm interest in VSM included working to relate the Viable System Model in plain language, common-sense terms.
11:39:32 From Jeff Miller And it was one of these talks which Chris connected with.
11:40:31 From Brian Might enjoy Steven Covey's 8th habit. "Find your inner voice, and inspire others to find theirs."
11:41:18 From Jeff Miller Who do you want on the Peace Corps projects? You're more likely to be successful with recruits who have direct experience with farming or other practical rural work.
11:41:20 From Brian For reforming the NYPD, the overwhelming criteria was to hire officers that were unquestionably sincere.
11:41:53 From Jeff Miller (credit to Melissa's work in West Africa with not-Peace Corps, but with other projects)
11:43:17 From Jeff Miller Eric relates: "the difference between having and not-having" is transformative for folks who are coming from a suburban US experience of growing up.
11:45:28 From Jeff Miller (a discussion around people learning really novel perspectives by traveling, that there are different worlds within this world that we don't learn except by going to them) (the broader perspectives then inform their work beyond that time)
11:47:35 From Marc Pierson Farm coops
11:47:40 From Jeff Miller Brian notes: "diversity incentivizes innovation" - is innovation a good thing? - cities are diverse; and innovation arises from competition. The grange?
11:48:17 From Ward Cunningham Innovation good an bad: http://found.ward.fed.wiki/technology-and-culture.htmlhttp://found.ward.fed.wiki/technology-and-culture.html
11:48:35 From Jeff Miller (to Marc's "farm co-ops") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grange_of_the_Order_of_Patrons_of_Husbandry
11:50:44 From Jeff Miller Brian relates that the US has a bigger rural to urban divide than perhaps political party or regional ones. Set up exchanges so you can understand the daily life and point of view of each other.
11:50:58 From Marc Pierson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myles_Horton
11:52:12 From Jeff Miller Ward suggests that a sequence of retreats for neighborhood organizers to work together in an open-space way for a few days every so often could be a way of building and cementing a group of folks who work together to the common purpose based on the connections established there.
11:52:27 From Marc Pierson https://appoftheday.downloadastro.com/app/plates/
11:52:59 From Jeff Miller Brian describes a person who invites a group of five together to cook dinner in NYC, and the cooking dinner followed by eating and discussion is a thing which brings together folks' perspectives, often making lasting connections. https://www.sequoiaretreatcenter.com/src-about (mentions Beyond War)
11:54:11 From Paul Rodwell https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-05/how-urban-and-rural-residents-can-find-common-ground
11:54:32 From Jeff Miller https://www.sequoiaretreatcenter.com/our-story
11:55:44 From Jeff Miller Ward describes the retreat related to setting up the PLoP conferences done at the Sequoia Retreat Center, closely related to the Beyond War movement.
11:56:41 From Paul Rodwell Replying to "https://www.bloomber..." https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57f4009b9de4bbad72bcfb32/t/5f31b2ae36cbdd36e8ab83fb/1597092530560/RUX+Handbook.pdf
11:57:26 From Jeff Miller Ward says: once you've been around enough in life and been touched with enough bullshit, you begin to realize things that are not bullshit, and those are worth investigating further.
11:58:38 From Jeff Miller favorite guitarist: Robert Fripp of King Crimson (from Paul)
11:59:24 From Paul Rodwell https://guitarcraft.com/
12:01:30 From Jeff Miller "Get a bunch of folding tables and hold the retreat at Leo's in Superior, Arizona" "Have folks stay in community homes" (Ward's suggestions) "Get some electric bikes for them to get around."
12:05:20
12:05:20 From Jeff Miller Eric observes: there's a way which folks with venture capital experience could distort the work by not being close enough. Brian suggests: you can't take money out; you can take credit, as a donor, but not gain advantage in an exclusive business way. Eric suggests: Let donors be the little sponsor of the Renaissance art, that their name and picture is present, but not that it's dominant.
12:06:32 From Jeff Miller Marc says that Chris's meeting in the last two months - Chris understands the risks of too much money entering the process. Eric suggests: so that Chris's special expertise should be spread among other workers in this area. The expertise of being wise and cautious about money.
12:10:25
12:10:25 From Paul Rodwell Some listening for Marc - King Crimson and Robert Fripp
12:12:06 From Jeff Miller (a note about the upcoming US cellphone emergency alarm test coming up - and if you want to conceal a phone from bad actors, turn it off!)