Text extraction. See Typescript Archive
09:05:22
09:05:22 From Paul Rodwell pedal extenders?
09:05:48 From Jeff Miller Peter: when "Avatar" is your background?
09:06:16 From Peter Dimitrios Oh -- picture from Universal Studios ride (from when I used to work there)
09:06:54 From Jeff Miller like Tour de France, where tiny things are removed for a few grams
09:08:08 From Peter Dimitrios shave your legs :-)
09:08:10 From Jeff Miller The kid has discovered that he was not gearing down low enough for the hills.
09:08:41 From Paul Rodwell just needs a few grams to move the pedals out a little - something like https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/401c4795-af29-4252-b979-31b23b5daaf3_1.a0f4e53cf34e62e4ea574ffe5a23fcb2.jpeg?odnWidth=1000&odnHeight=1000&odnBg=ffffff
09:08:44 From Jeff Miller He thought there might be something wrong with himself or the bike. (The bike does have too short a frame)
09:09:57 From Peter Dimitrios righty tighty lefty-loosey doesn't work
09:13:18
09:13:18 From Jeff Miller left / right is a thing more intuitive to some than others math and physics: which way does the cross-product point?
09:14:34 From Paul Rodwell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDE3E5myE9s
09:21:55
09:21:55 From Jeff Miller premium candy like Hillel Wayne's handouts
09:24:58
09:24:58 From Jeff Miller there was a feature on the radio about cherries made for export with fine control of the environment, a greenhouse with a mechanically controlled roof
09:26:17 From Jeff Miller Lindemann's Raspberry Lambic, about 3% and very tasty Olympia was one of my dad's brands. the lucky horseshoe and the waterfall
09:33:30
09:33:30 From Jeff Miller four metal things in the pavement
09:35:03 From Jeff Miller looks like hook attachments
09:36:09 From Jeff Miller Ingrid Burrington @lifewinning "Networks of New York" (Downtown Seattle still has central steam)
09:37:18 From Jeff Miller When it snows in Seattle you can tell who has better and worse roof insulation and who might be on vacation
09:37:38 From Ward Cunningham http://path.ward.asia.wiki.org/jeri-ellsworth-on-mentors.html
09:38:42 From Jeff Miller "invented her own traction control"
09:45:28
09:45:28 From Jeff Miller stepfather broke his collarbone and got a concussion from a bike crash
09:46:40 From Jeff Miller broken femur, healed
09:46:47 From Marc Pierson The stuff that I am working on, “nesting governance, nesting constitutions”, may have direct relevance for safety.
09:46:49 From Jeff Miller sign of sociality "nesting governance" ! :) fighting the spreadsheet hierarchy
09:47:59 From Jeff Miller firefighters versus fire marshals needing heroes is a bad sign
09:49:15 From Jeff Miller "The Heroine's Journey" - alliances
09:49:15 From Paul Rodwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroine%27s_journey
09:50:05 From Jeff Miller (my writing class reading includes The Heroine's Journey -- the author is slightly irritated that she had to write it, but eventually "there has to be a book, and I guess I have to write it") Stafford Beer / Viable System Model / nested governance https://robina.relocalizecreativity.net/view/nesting-constitutions/
09:51:29 From Jeff Miller that's a dramatic picture!
09:55:15
09:55:15 From Jeff Miller "You don't have to think of the system all at once. You can focus on the relationships among these. At the highest level, the governance rules are simple and general; the ones below are specific and local." (example from Vancouver BC and different neighborhoods being self-governed by different unwritten rules at the grassroots levels)
09:56:27 From Jeff Miller rationalization of governance hierarchies to support a national army (as a counterexample) "Regenerate Sonora" as an example in Mexico (I wonder if Pronatura Sonora has any overlap?) (US sister org: "Friends of Pronatura")
09:58:51 From Jeff Miller if it's a monopoly, maybe "sabotage" is your highest leverage governance move? https://robina.relocalizecreativity.net/view/nesting-constitutions/
10:01:39
10:01:39 From Jeff Miller lower levels can choose to ignore general rules from the top (in US experience) - capture by local loops adding Robin Asby to the lineup https://robina.relocalizecreativity.net/view/robin-asby/view/nesting-constitutions
10:05:10
10:05:10 From Jeff Miller "How is it that we can get from here to where we can have nice things?" (Peter and Marc discussion about governance patterns vs. what our experience has been in the US)
10:06:14 From Jeff Miller Scandinavia I think it was the Danes? (jury trials)
10:07:35 From Jeff Miller "always" == since the 1600s? (corporation limited liability)
10:07:43 From Paul Rodwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury - dates back to mid-12th century
10:07:58 From Jeff Miller thanks Paul! the US keeps reinventing compulsory labor
10:09:02 From Paul Rodwell earliest reference seems to be from 997
10:11:30 From Peter Dimitrios Were Roman Legions subsidiaries of Imperial Rome Inc ?
10:11:33 From Jeff Miller (to Ward's thoughts about the corruption of local governance; what keeps a modular information sharing governance structure functional?; Lawrence Lessig [Creative Commons, post-Soviet constitutions] etc. as a constitutional lawyer) and who gets to decimate a Legion that acts contrary to the governing authority?
10:12:58 From Jeff Miller "what does a sense-making community look like?" (to Ward's thoughts about how a federation of wikis can be mutually supportive)
10:13:56 From Marc Pierson Eric, you will change the safety world if you can introduce (successfully) sinage. signage
10:16:58
10:16:58 From Jeff Miller (having feelings of discomfort around pushing away responsibility and finger-pointing; what do we need to be resilient to that?) "why is this MY problem?"
10:19:05 From Jeff Miller hi Viki! (Marc is talking about nested governance and using Alexandrian building patterns about beauty as a constraint for decisions)
10:19:51 From viki Reacted to "(Marc is talking a..." with ❤️
10:20:08 From Robert Best Betweeness
10:22:57
10:22:57 From Jeff Miller Marc recommends using the VSM as an observational model for how the world works well, and as a perspective to bring to understanding systems in the world. "Try and translate Beer's observations into your own language."
10:24:37 From Eric Dobbs Hi Viki.
10:25:33 From Marc Pierson Hi Viki
10:27:01 From Marc Pierson What meta date or hooks are (or or not) attached to the checkbox function. Could we use the checkbox to indicate the presence or absence of signage and the changes and time of changes? data not date
10:27:21 From Paul Rodwell http://academia-danubiana.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/2012p26b_PATTERN-DESIGN-Positive-Outdoor-Space.pdf
10:28:26 From Marc Pierson Imagine if societal rules are as vivid and interesting as Ward’s photo journalism.
10:30:54 From Marc Pierson I can easily imaging governance across levels being organized by domains. E.g. housing, water, land, education…
10:31:40 From Jeff Miller query by picture? "an image caption survey across sites"
10:32:23 From Robert Best Are photos themselves aware of their own other instances, like backlinks? Or this relies on some scripting?
10:32:42 From Marc Pierson Nece question! Nice
10:34:01 From Marc Pierson The software that creates the newer and older designation for pages must know how to do this.
10:35:28 From Jeff Miller I wonder if I turned off my location information for the new phone camera. No lat/long for the photos on the new page. http://photos.pixiereport.com/view/to-uw-with-pavement-tiles
10:36:35 From Robert Best Made me think maybe flags could be drag/dropped onto rosters to add that domain to the roster...
10:36:38 From Jeff Miller yes, looks like I didn't capture locations. similar shape dynamics, similar conversations?
10:37:49 From Jeff Miller (Ward's wiki sites, maps, photos, history) (Marc's exploration of nested governance with adjacent bodies in conversation)
10:38:21 From Paul Rodwell can add location after the fact - get the location from one of the map application and paste the lat,long into the lat field (it will get separated out)
10:39:08 From Jeff Miller I'll do that! I'll see if I can bracket the area and dot in the locations.
10:42:28
10:42:28 From Jeff Miller "FedWiki obeys a small set of laws that we agreed upon. Only you write on your wiki. How do we work together given these laws?" Movies from San Francisco street life from before 1906. (The Long Now folks like to show those)
10:43:30 From Jeff Miller time scales, time scales, time scales (temporal shearing layers visualized by films!) and Gertie the Dinosaur as a film + in-person presentation
10:45:11 From Jeff Miller voluntary intentional organization patterns good experiences and bad experiences were more about the people and less about the purpose (from Viki) "what makes theory different from practice?"
10:46:22 From Jeff Miller "What are the consistent practices?" (vs. the contradictory dogmas) a religion: "beliefs, practices, community"
10:47:19 From Paul Rodwell moral framework
10:47:56 From Jeff Miller (reminds me of Miss Manners' formula for a date: Entertainment, Companionship, Food; more entertainment to start, more companionship later, but always food)
10:49:14 From Jeff Miller a meeting with an ostensible purpose, whose actual purpose is maintaining social ties
10:50:39 From Jeff Miller we've assembled the right decision making group; however the decision was already made.
10:53:29
10:53:29 From Jeff Miller (discussion of Viki's work marketing for visonary projects)
10:54:14 From Robert Best Killer apps
10:54:28 From Jeff Miller like the Google All Hands lots of "so, REALLY, execs?" At some point they quit having all-hands meetings.
10:55:32 From Jeff Miller REI as a strange beast, now "mountain fashion wear" ten, two, one, [weeks, weeks, weeks], two, five, eight, one, one. (years)
10:56:41 From Jeff Miller until the advent of the leveraged buyout "how can we plunder this org"
10:58:47 From Jeff Miller oh argh I'm not counting followers what a burden!
11:00:21 From Jeff Miller (discussion of what gets people motivated to stay committed to an organization; why do people stay motivated, Twitter follower counting as a motivator?) poker versus bridge bridge is a little bit like Dixit? signal well but not too well?
11:01:34 From Jeff Miller Liar's Poker
11:02:02 From Robert Best Yea, dealer's choice is fun.
11:02:07 From Jeff Miller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar%27s_Poker versus the game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar%27s_poker
11:03:19 From Jeff Miller "We are what we repeatedly do."
11:04:32 From Jeff Miller Reflections on Trusting Trust? ;)
11:04:59 From Robert Best https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_(poker)
11:05:28 From Jeff Miller a meeting that does not address its ostensible purpose is in fact about something else "Who will rid me of these turbulent incidents?"
11:06:11 From Marc Pierson https://robina.relocalizecreativity.net/view/nesting-constitutions/view/house-of-rep-1/view/house-of-rep-3/view/house-of-rep-6
11:06:37 From Jeff Miller let's just process harder? rules and instrumentalities for those rules maybe there's a different way of interpreting the landscape
11:07:53 From viki Maybe people need rackets for different reasons than they need jobs
11:08:00 From Jeff Miller "make this trouble go away!" "How would I translate this demand into a mandate to do the thing that needs to be done?"
11:09:07 From Jeff Miller (thinking of Eric's relationship)
11:10:18 From Jeff Miller Legible process control (execs thinking of the process details) versus effective process control (what do we need to change in the system?) :lightbulb: - different ways of wanting the same thing?
11:12:54
11:12:54 From Jeff Miller teams at the sharp end need for-instances AND autonomy for pursuing objectives "for-instance, you may find that A, B, C tactics are useful; YOUR team must decide which of these is a good bet to CHANGE things."
11:14:32 From Jeff Miller (Jeff trying to interpret Eric's code-switching of language between execs and ops teams) how to avoid a "Murder in the Cathedral" situation?
11:16:02 From Jeff Miller communicate upward in terms of OODA and unit autonomy? communicate downward in terms of priorities and decisions based on the team's landscape of pain / opportunity?
11:21:18
11:21:18 From Jeff Miller a world of process and a world of expertise a world of expertise versus a world of "a year of experience twenty times"
11:21:43 From Robert Best Something in here related to a poker insight around something like... You can make the best decision and still have the outcome be to "lose".
11:21:55 From Jeff Miller "what does deliberate practice for improvement look like?" Robert B: yes. Sometimes the best choice is not actually a success, as things work out. some execs are contrarians who made a wild bet and won
11:22:59 From Jeff Miller and now they question things not actually worth questioning, and favor their own point of view
11:23:00 From Peter Dimitrios AIML right now does not touch the world - active inference
11:23:47 From Jeff Miller right. LLMs have a very strange feedback loop; they are very much tools and not reasoning engines
11:23:50 From Peter Dimitrios But the models produce stuff into the environment and affect the next models being trained. Kinda like what causes "Mad Cow" disease - Bovine Encephelatis
11:24:11 From Jeff Miller yes, mad cow as a result of being fed info poison ex-programmers in leadership no longer have intuition that is likely to match the current landscape
11:26:12 From Jeff Miller so instead of doing unit tests as a strong guarantee you need the simian army
11:27:50 From Jeff Miller system resilience tests as coarse fault injection versus mathematical / logic based sequences of "does this process proceed? does it complete? does it produce results correct in some way?"
11:29:00 From Jeff Miller (model verification approaches) (me: not allowed to be burned out)
11:30:11 From Jeff Miller being on the platform team for an internal consumer of Azure was really interesting
11:30:14 From Robert Best Set the latest record for fastest to 100M MAU
11:33:23
11:33:23 From Robert Best Place your bets
11:33:52 From Jeff Miller early DICE era? (contract programmer portfolio plan?) AutoCAD! wow!
11:35:08 From Jeff Miller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_(programmer)
11:37:09 From Jeff Miller https://www.fourmilab.ch/
11:37:21 From Marc Pierson https://robina.relocalizecreativity.net/view/nesting-constitutions
11:38:09 From Jeff Miller a patent is a temporary giveaway to "business" to encourage industrial innovation by regularizing how knowledge is created and shared
11:39:16 From Jeff Miller Ward says: here are some things I want to do regularly on our calls. One of the things I want to do is to review what we find useful in our design principles.
11:40:41 From Jeff Miller Here is a document where I describe what we wanted (with video references), with an interpretation of what simplification of mechanism implementing the principles might be helpful. https://github.com/dobbs/wiki-spike-css/blob/main/principles.md
11:41:51 From Jeff Miller no separation between editing and publishing (Viki calls this out, and Ward echoes) Viki says: authoring does something different...
11:44:22
11:44:22 From Jeff Miller ...authoring: when you sign a document, as a finished work?
11:44:49 From Paul Rodwell has a ‘wiki’ nature… whatever that might mean…
11:44:51 From Marc Pierson Eric, can I capture the SVG from the web page that is created by GraphViz and then use that in the fedwiki?
11:45:31 From Ward Cunningham https://github.com/dobbs/wiki-spike-css/blob/main/principles.md
11:46:01 From Jeff Miller I miss SmashWordsTogetherToAskQuestions?
11:46:51 From Robert Best Is the shift click to append rather than replace the lineup to the right already in the list? Not sure how that would be done on mobile.
11:47:23 From Paul Rodwell mishmash - there was often no right place for a bit of css, so it often ended up being inline.
11:47:51 From Jeff Miller Ward mentions another regular item for the meetings, after reviewing wiki principles; "What's going on, on the internet?" via the wiki good parts since the last call.
11:48:54 From Jeff Miller http://found.ward.fed.wiki/view/the-good-parts/view/recent-changes add 👍 "often no right place for a bit of CSS" speaks to the CSS Spike effort.
11:49:51 From Robert Best I still wish the links in the activity plugin could be opened in new tabs and still work like the links do in other items like paragraphs, markdown etc.
11:50:23 From Jeff Miller Robert: yes: some uniformity of behavior helps build confidence in understanding the wiki UI ChatGPT! It's made of mashed up people!
11:54:17
11:54:17 From Peter Dimitrios RAG = Retrieval Augmented Generation
11:54:42 From Jeff Miller "ChatGPT, tell me how these two things relate?" "what terms are associated with A and B?"
11:55:53 From Peter Dimitrios Fedwiki for collecting knowledge tidbits, links is good except for can't do it efficiently on my mobile devices
11:56:59 From Jeff Miller "Breakfast on the Bridges" monthly bicycle snack event a reason to stop and chat
11:57:27 From Marc Pierson Before we leave I have a question
11:58:21 From Jeff Miller add 💡 Mobile web importer for FedWiki? (to Peter D)
12:00:21 From Paul Rodwell How can we use LLMs to search even better? - https://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2023/07/comment-how-can-we-use-llms-to-search.html#comment-form
12:00:53 From Peter Dimitrios Yup...buncha interesting work .... Google and Bard doing a lot to see how they can protect their turf
12:01:13 From Jeff Miller "there is no moat, there must be a moat! or a law!" "can I save the SVG from the page as a static resource?" right-click, save as?
12:02:33 From Paul Rodwell a parting thought, from a probably misheard comment and something I was reading this morning. friends “meet for a common purpose” (sometimes daily and sometimes a couple days a week) to gossip, experience life, and to share advice - from a description of 模合 (Mo-ai), social support groups in Okinawa.
12:02:52 From Jeff Miller yes
12:02:53 From Eric Dobbs http://eric.dojo.fed.wiki/2023-06-25-dot-for-eip-sketch.html
12:04:12 From Jeff Miller the bike breakfasts on the bridges have something of that aspect (one has something in common) but groups of retired friends, or bowling teams, or church study groups can have the aspects of the common sharing (to Paul's comment)
12:04:49 From Paul Rodwell an observation - http://paul.dojo.fed.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/2023-06-25-dot-for-eip-sketch
12:05:18 From Jeff Miller oh the downloaded page was not an SVG, it was an HTML page embedding an SVG? (to the parse error issue) Paul observes an inconsistency in the DOT
12:06:21 From Jeff Miller https://edotor.net/ an online DOT editor some of the magic in the three column SVG was in adding invisible links among the three groups
12:07:34 From Jeff Miller EcoBioPhysical World <--> Institution <--> GeoPolitical World
12:07:57 From Paul Rodwell The link to rendering getting confused - https://forum.graphviz.org/t/rendering-produces-varying-and-frequently-wrong-results/656
12:08:01 From Jeff Miller EW --> I --> GW [constraint=none style=invis] I bet that the SVG node could be captured but it might require fiddling in the Inspector
12:09:17 From Jeff Miller Ward observes that "freezing" and "thawing" of generated results is a concept in rendered content in Federated Wiki. Is that a thing that could be helpful for SVGs rendered from GraphViz? Are there systematic ways that Federated Wiki can freeze and thaw contents? "freeze the roster" (from Marc) "tie the neighborhood to a roster"
12:10:32 From Eric Dobbs The graphviz plugin has a download link which will save the SVG on your disk. But it does not save the click behavior. So it would have to be re-processed before saved in an HTML item in order to use it for navigation.
12:10:46 From Jeff Miller "When I do searches and pull up pages, I want to stay within the site, and then choose a whole federation search separately."
12:11:02 From Paul Rodwell search based on roster - think that is somewhere on list
12:11:06 From Jeff Miller add 👍
12:12:01 From Robert Best Ctrl+shift+click any flag to remove from neighborhood, etc...
12:12:20 From Jeff Miller I think of how do I describe the expected behavior and moves of FedWiki as part of a federation, part of a farm, and as an individual wiki? nooooo! undo! undo! (oopsie the neighborhood)
12:12:49 From Paul Rodwell but only is you are also scratching your left ear ;)
12:13:06 From Jeff Miller does a neighborhood or roster have a journal? defederate! (Mastodon: an "anti-roster")
12:14:52 From Jeff Miller "What if the activity plugin had a search box?" "search the sites using incremental search"
12:15:29 From Paul Rodwell there is already the search plugin… but that goes to the search server.