Text extraction. See Typescript Archive
10:08:02
10:08:02 From Jeff Miller exposed conduit and ductwork celebrate things in proper style
10:08:17 From Peter Dimitrios easier to repair
10:08:24 From Jeff Miller or to damage both!
10:08:30 From Peter Dimitrios no tearing up drywall and then repairing / repainting
10:09:01 From Jeff Miller (I have a kid in an indefinite bridge halfway through college, but may be returning)
10:09:03 From Peter Dimitrios I've got CAT5 cable stapled around my baseboards ... unnoticeable unless you look
10:09:30 From Jeff Miller BEAMs ? the Erlang virtual .... oh support beams building architectural Stumptown! San Francisco building coffee warehouses and south of Market buildings logs too big to deal with oh right Seattle Fire, of course
10:10:56 From Jeff Miller a polynuclear community? but one that everyone shares a map oh fun package management, the ecosystem I love to hate
10:11:24 From Paul Rodwell and diverse needs for item support
10:11:27 From Jeff Miller yes! good fences make additions possible except yeah, maybe we want the Prototype pattern? _diverse needs for item support_
10:12:49 From Jeff Miller how to clone a wiki kit-out? hmm okay!
10:14:08 From Peter Dimitrios Dockerfile in git repo ?
10:14:13 From Jeff Miller (a screencast showing examples of moves in understanding and collaboration) "an example would be handy just about now" - Marick
10:15:53 From Jeff Miller okay I can see wanting to highlight different ReLocalize themes by neighborhood, or highlighting which neighborhoods are working on a particular ReLocalize theme (Neighborhood) [many] --- [many] (ReLocalize Energy, Environment, etc...)
10:18:15 From Jeff Miller Key insight: without the tools for seeing the systems of your neighborhood, you can't organize community members around what you want to happen, and even what's going on right now. (paraphrase from Marc's ReLocalize intention)
10:19:05 From Peter Dimitrios FYA bard for "As an expert in Causal Loop Diagrams (CLD) use causal loop diagrams to handle how to relocalize neighborhoods" gives me a reference to a CLD that the publisher has now made private, but apparently Bard has read it and summarized some of it.
10:19:54 From Jeff Miller paraphrasefrom Ward: there are then things to do in organizing a neighborhood, and ReLocalize Creativity helps to provide the structure to build out a charter for neighborhood organizing, to fill in the blanks. Smalltalk images - a self-contained world scales to a research lab
10:20:44 From Peter Dimitrios Envy
10:20:54 From Jeff Miller I remember Envy! its failure modes were opaque but its affordances when working well were very nice (to a discussion of OTI as a Smalltalk distribution mechanism, a historic archive)
10:22:27 From Jeff Miller https://wiki.c2.com/?EnvyDeveloper THIMK
10:23:05 From Peter Dimitrios dependency management and subprojects were nifty to handle portability across systems
10:23:35 From Jeff Miller Envy worked pretty okay at Retail Aspect (my first XP team/job) We put a heavy load on it with a table full of CI'ing pairs.
10:23:54 From Peter Dimitrios FYA originally called Orwell
10:24:21 From Jeff Miller print 'em out on paper? (longevity of pictures) (Ward / Marc) - history and knowledge with visualization.
10:24:48 From Paul Rodwell Xerox PARC - Alto, STAR…
10:25:53 From Jeff Miller Marc: the best thing about visualization is that it retains important relationships which can be lost in a textual description, a description in ordinary language. (paraph) Wiki - a flexible but effective SCHEMA for organizing linked information and holding the memory of an ongoing conversation
10:26:55 From Jeff Miller (laughing at "CB Simulator")
10:26:56 From Marc Pierson Reading more than they are writing!
10:27:14 From Jeff Miller yes, reading more than writing!
10:27:21 From Peter Dimitrios FYA just went down a quick rabbit-hole: Smalltalk Envy - Envy/Developer origins by luminaries like Ward Cunningham, Ron Jeffries, Dave Thomas (Paul Hammert 2017-09-01): https://paulhammant.com/2017/09/01/smalltalk-envy/
10:27:28 From Marc Pierson Listening more than talking!
10:27:56 From Jeff Miller Oh Hammant, he seemed like a pretty solid fellow when I met him. (nod) Listening more than talking
10:29:18 From Peter Dimitrios FYA webpage lists Ward as 'grand pappy of modern programming'
10:30:47 From Jeff Miller C2: Balancing Readers, Writers, and Editors. https://wiki.c2.com/?BalancingReadersWritersAndEditors
10:32:15 From Jeff Miller Part of the point behind my web toys: Javascript against the DOM, no libraries.
10:33:17 From Jeff Miller high-current operations: 440V three-phase, a different electrical regime from 220V or 110V two-phase AC containerized shipping as an adaptation to multiple transport regimes?
10:34:21 From Jeff Miller some boundaries: switching from one gauge to another overnight "Let's ADD something to compensate for a mis-fit"
10:35:22 From Jeff Miller "It's easy to add the things when you need them" - your design is supple and appropriate to your changing needs
10:38:34
10:38:34 From Jeff Miller The character of what we do in wiki has changed perhaps once or twice or three times a year; we have an ongoing series of conversations on what we want to do. Marc: "I need more people like Chris, who work with neighborhoods"
10:39:57 From Jeff Miller MASVF wiki - a shareable set of pages visualized in different sorts of ways, supporting versioning and source control Who do we invite to push and pull the direction? (discussion of different priorities and time scales)
10:41:38 From Jeff Miller Doug Englebart was famous for coming up with new ideas to try out on software, but the folks who worked with him could feel like they couldn't keep up with his ideas. (from Ward) Ted Nelson, similarly, could think very quickly about ways to organize software systems.
10:42:59 From Jeff Miller DevOps for wiki communities? (resilience, easily checkable, easily fixed)
10:44:29 From Paul Rodwell https://massive.wiki/ https://tiddlywiki.com/
10:45:59 From Jeff Miller TiddlyWiki does have plugins included as blobs of javascript
10:47:07 From Jeff Miller TiddlyWiki: everything is in a single file MassiveWiki: everything is in a folder and subfolders MassiveWiki: there are different front ends
10:48:17 From Jeff Miller TiddlyWiki ~ maybe more like Smalltalk images? MassiveWiki ~ source code based collaboration in the back end, not in the front end typically; views and visual presentations live in various front end clients like Obsidian
10:49:29 From Jeff Miller or by anything that can digest the "folders and subfolders of linked Markdown pages" minimal schema
10:49:36 From Paul Rodwell Tiddlywiki is an example of a quine - a program that produces its own source code as output
10:49:41 From Jeff Miller :) similarly there is a MSCode front end for Massive Wiki page vaults, "Dendron"
10:50:28 From Marc Pierson I am interested in shared knowledge. Not personal knowledge.
10:50:41 From Jeff Miller if you want the sharing to happen in the foreground then FedWiki is among the best choices static site publishing is available from a Massive Wiki vault (similarly Dendron and Obsidian)
10:51:52 From Robert Best If you just save your MD files from Obsidian on a git system...is massivewiki doing anything additional for you?
10:51:59 From Jeff Miller oh right Gollum Wiki has some ambiguity in live mode (Gollum as a front end for MASVF vaults) Robert B: I don't think that Massive Wiki adds anything substantial to Obsidian's workflow.
10:52:58 From Robert Best Starts with an R
10:53:19 From Paul Rodwell Jeremy Ruston
10:53:20 From Jeff Miller TiddlyWiki: Jeremy Ruston it's a generative idea and the TWine game engine is a fork (originally) of TiddlyWiki (Twine has been rehosted)
10:54:27 From Jeff Miller FedWiki foregrounds the collaboration in a way that MASVF and Tiddly background the collaborations (as far as I know)
10:55:48 From Paul Rodwell https://talk.tiddlywiki.org/t/tw5-experimenting-with-side-by-side-tiddlers/2942
10:55:50 From Jeff Miller The FedWiki Lineup -- cited by Marc as an important way of working with pages (Ward: Pivotal Tracker had side-by-side) [I actually love TweetDeck's multi column format] TiddlyWiki can have multiple pages open but it's vertically oriented
11:01:36
11:01:36 From Jeff Miller Marc cites advantages of FedWiki: 1. Lineup to organize thoughts and orient views and computations in the lineup. (Eric: it's the learning-to-ride-a-bicycle of FedWiki) 2. FedWiki is collaboration-forward, retaining origin of pages and items. 3. FedWiki supports visualization via front-end plugins and creative use of page scripting and the Frame plugin. 4. ... Discussion questions about FedWiki for interoperation with other knowledge spaces Export FedWiki to MASVF wiki
11:02:56 From Jeff Miller Obsidian as a front-end and editor for a FedWiki page space?
11:04:03 From Jeff Miller FedWiki as the source for a static site generator, like a simpler version of Thompson's book project. OneNote: it's okay (Marc: OneNote as friendly way of importing web page data) "There are so many things out there... do you have a commitment to do them all?"
11:05:07 From Jeff Miller Obsidian is (IIRC) a Proton application sitting on top of the filesystem. not natively very webby Marc discusses FedWiki <-> Brain content transfer.
11:06:25 From Jeff Miller (there was a proof-of-concept prototype done earlier) (The SuperCollaborator ended up being the right tool for a limited set of use cases, including Thompson's book editing workflow)
11:07:32 From Paul Rodwell I think there were a number of files missing from the Brain export that were needed to import the contents. But, I think we were only looking at the link structure at that time.
11:08:36 From Jeff Miller "We've learned things from the SuperCollaborator that gave us insights; is the SuperCollaborator itself a generative tool or is it not so super by itself?" brb crows flapping trying to get my attention
11:12:37
11:12:37 From Jeff Miller (thinking of FedWiki page as a column of items, vs. MASVF wiki page as a single item of type Markdown with metadata)
11:13:48 From Jeff Miller (image assets or other non-page assets handled in some way in MASVF / Obsidian vaults?) Marc describes using types and tags in The Brain
11:14:59 From Jeff Miller Marc points to the color scheme in the Supercollaborator and the wiki survey results as similar affordances to the Brain's types/tags Ward comments that FedWiki supports those capabilities but doesn't forward them as the expected
11:17:10 From Jeff Miller (Marc / Kerry / Chris discussion about centering efforts around an activist within the neighborhood; how to support the efforts of that role when it might now be an unpaid role?) "How can we afford to manage a neighborhood's commons?" How does Ostrom's management of the commons get supported?
11:18:33 From Jeff Miller Ostrom was studying resources with known value, such that participation related intimately with the value of managing that common resource..
11:20:23 From Jeff Miller Ostrom says that if there's a large value above the sustainable subsistence return on a managed resource, it exposes a commons to capture by an outside force that values extraction, since the value will support the hierarchical structure.
11:23:00
11:23:00 From Jeff Miller Marc describes a visualization available to contributors with Chris (as neighborhood activist) contributing to the effort, and how much Chris is willing to do for free, and what is the shortfall needed to fulfill in order to get more of CHris' time in the neighborhood
11:24:09 From Paul Rodwell maybe - https://opencollective.com/
11:24:50 From Jeff Miller (Jeff M. mentions Patreon and monthly contribution totals as a model of an artist who can create more art "$2500/month: quit my day job and do art full-time")
11:26:13 From Jeff Miller screen clip from front page of Open Collective
11:28:03 From Jeff Miller Ward describes how hierarchical reporting of status takes a somewhat narrower view up each level, but also suggests that FedWiki could be an ongoing reporting source and an ongoing collaboration state, reducing bottom-level status reporting by substituting common collaborative work state among dev teams. Ward describes David Woods' tangled network as resilient to unforseen needs for adaptation
11:30:05 From Jeff Miller https://ideas.repec.org/a/spr/envsyd/v38y2018i4d10.1007_s10669-018-9708-3.html oh wait that's an abstract, hmm
11:31:03 From Eric Dobbs https://tge.wiki.dbbs.co/view/welcome-visitors/view/graceful-extensibility
11:31:33 From Jeff Miller PDF: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327427067_The_Theory_of_Graceful_Extensibility_Basic_rules_that_govern_adaptive_systems (apologies for the animated ads in this view)
11:33:48 From Jeff Miller (unfolding each subset) https://tge.wiki.dbbs.co/view/graceful-extensibility/view/managing-risk-of-saturation/view/networks-of-adaptive-units/view/outmaneuvering-constraints specifically these https://tge.wiki.dbbs.co/view/graceful-extensibility/view/managing-risk-of-saturation/view/attention-to-risk-of-saturation
11:35:36 From Jeff Miller What are ways in which the "network of adaptive units" can support the "adaptive unit under saturation" ? If ReLocalize loses Chris' attention due to need for family income and time and attention, does it cause a brittle failure of the effort?
11:37:23 From Jeff Miller How can the community take load off Chris in order to free up more attention for the community work? How can some of the community work be picked up by others?
11:38:45 From Jeff Miller money as the undo button for modest incidents if you don't have money, then you can have a brittle systems failure (for want of a nail, a shoe was lost...)
11:43:56
11:43:56 From Jeff Miller Woods, Graceful Extensibility, Subset C. S7: Adaptive units perform differently outside saturation and near saturation. Base capacity and extended capacity are necessary and distinct for an adaptive unit to be viable. S8: All adaptive units are local; there are only local views and no best view within the network, no omniscient perspective. S9: Bounds both reveal and obscure properties of the environment. S10: There are limits on how well a unit's model of its own and others' adaptive capacity can match actual capability; miscalibration is the norm, and ongoing efforts are needed to improve the match between capacity and model. paraphrase-ish
11:45:32 From Jeff Miller Shifting the view of brittleness. What can signal brittleness ahead of the losses and damage from brittle failures? Monitor changes in capacity for maneuver. High risk of saturation can signal for the unit and neighboring units to change behavior to expand the capacity for maneuver for the unit at-risk. See Optimality vs Extensibility for processes that extend adaptive capacity when challenges arise. (the "exposition" section for Subset C in Eric's wiki, notes from a discussion)
11:47:23 From Jeff Miller https://tge.wiki.dbbs.co/view/graceful-extensibility/view/managing-risk-of-saturation/view/networks-of-adaptive-units/view/outmaneuvering-constraints oh! shift-click in the diagrams doesn't respect the Lineup "it used to, though" - Eric
11:49:22 From Jeff Miller [I guess one slides pages around?] the PerlNature more than one way to do it
11:50:35 From Marc Pierson https://tge.wiki.dbbs.co/view/welcome-visitors/view/graceful-extensibility/view/s1/view/s2/view/s3/view/s4/view/s5/view/s6/view/s7/view/s8/view/s9/view/s10
11:51:02 From Jeff Miller BDFL Guido - one good way to do it (with Guido as the constrained adaptive unit) Django vs. Flask vs. ... (one good way to do it can't survive success)
11:52:16 From Jeff Miller extraordinary proliferation of Lisps (and Schemes)
11:52:28 From Paul Rodwell maybe - https://github.com/dobbs/wiki-plugin-graphviz/blob/87e2f1d338ffbcf3b228dd2969010baa3b737f14/client/graphviz.js#L481
11:53:07 From Jeff Miller "This idea is so good I stayed up all night and implemented Wiki in REXX." REXX as backing language to "xedit" powerful programmable text manipulation Tcl/Tk in the web?
11:57:32
11:57:32 From Jeff Miller a Bridgeport Mill ("the machine that won the war") machine tools (tools to make machines to make ammunition)
11:58:59 From Jeff Miller reminds me of the understory of the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center ("carwash backroom") "environmentally sensitive car wash" recapturing chemicals
12:01:02 From Jeff Miller "metis" called out by Brian Marick when talking about "Seeing Like a State" - it's the directly involved local knowledge "plant your corn when the oak leaves are the size of a squirrel's ear"
12:03:12 From Paul Rodwell wetware => between the ears